[Free]

Those 1974 hang gliders were death traps - even compared to modern era paragliders.

1974 gliders are a defense against the paragliding deaths of today?
That's not much of an argument.

And most of the issues with which Jack Haberstroh was concerned WERE very well addressed by HGMA certification - the best goddam thing that ever happened to this stupid sport -

Blaspheme doesn't strengthen your point. I'm not particularly religious but it strikes me offensive.
If that was your intent, it worked. Congratulations.

" How can the US Hawks structure itself to prevent its being corrupted in the same way as virtually every other national organization?"

By pressuring members to stay engaged in discussions, answer questions, and not ignore inconvenient truths.

See above..

"Hey, this is Maryland! Just how bad do you think it can get?"

The inconvenient truth is that it's probably going to get a lot worse before it's gonna get better...if ever, and I'm
not so much talking about earthquakes. Economy, congress, media.. "Gerald Celente & Alex Jones: The House of Presstitution" 8/22/11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSRDJzwhYWM

You tell me Al Gore is right and the earth is going to end tomorrow I still doubt that I would fly a paraglider. .. back in 1974... no problem.. I did a lot of stupid things back then.

And speaking of not so old business, Bob, didn't quite answer my recent physics question about 9-11 and you haven't either. I'm not asking you to engage in any discussion of who, what, when and where.. just the physics of 9-11, short and sweet.

How does a steel core building fall into it's own footprint at the speed of gravity?

The answer today should match an answer given in 1974 unless there are new developments in physics that I'm not aware of.. ?

w

[Free]

1. If, two seconds prior to a foot launch, you assume you're NOT hooked in and verify you're a lot less likely to die than somebody who always does a hang check at the back of the ramp.

2. Ninety-nine percent of the landings we do are a lot less likely to maim and kill us if we stay on the basetube and roll in on wheels.

3. If you're landing in environment in which your safety is dependent upon whipstalling the glider to a dead stop within a wingspan of a particular point you shouldn't be.

4. The last third of a low level lockout is a really bad time to be taking a hand off the basetube to grope around for a release.

5. Installing in your tow system a piece of fishing line which disintegrates at random every third or fourth flight does not lead to increased safety.

Nothing to argue with here.. perfectly good sense and no cuss words.
Did you suddenly get religion after the earthquake?

[Rick Masters]

You sure we got it right?

No, of course not. To me, the big thing was not perfecting a rigid suspension system. I think most of the tumbles are related to that. You mentioned this a post or two back, and Roy Haggard pointed it out to me in 1985, that a hang glider follows the angle of attack. When you go over the falls and the glider seems to suddenly rotate around you, it's simply keeping its nose into the flow of the wind. A rigid suspension would prevent our bodies from changing the pitch at this critical moment, allowing the glider to naturally recover.

And then there's the wild air that will eat you alive, rip the bar out of your hands and snap stuff. That's what emergency parachutes are for.

[TadEareckson]

Warren,

That's not much of an argument.

It's not ANYTHING of an argument - just a statement of fact. Early Seventies hang gliders tended to be uncertified and uncertifiable junk which had glide ratios a little better than cinder blocks and killed people at faster rates and for more reasons than modern paragliders do.

Blaspheme doesn't strengthen your point.

Doesn't weaken it either.

I'm not particularly religious but it strikes me offensive.

I'm not at all religious and it doesn't strike me offensive. Different strokes...

If that was your intent...

Nope. But you're perfectly free to be offended if you want. And it's only blasphemy if there's somebody up there who gives a rat's a**. And if that's what he gives a rat's a** about then screw him - there've gotta be better gods in need and deserving of the work.

See above..

And you're also free not to engage in discussions about how to make the sport safe, sane, and efficient because you don't fully approve of some aspects of one of the participants. Of course if I followed that plan I would have no web presence or influence whatsoever.

You tell me Al Gore is right and the earth is going to end tomorrow...

The only people who are saying that the earth is gonna end on any particular or undefined but near future tomorrow are religious whack jobs and the clones in their cults. But I one hundred percent guarantee you that tomorrow the earth will be a hotter and more toxic, unstable, environmentally degraded place with less biodiversity, fewer species, and more dismal prospects for the future of coal digging and non coal digging monkeys.

...just the physics of 9-11, short and sweet.

Some really brave, dedicated, devout religious whack jobs commandeered some really big planes with really big tanks full of fuel and flew them into really big buildings. And a lot of stuff burned, fell down, and got squashed.

Nothing to argue with here...

Forgot one:

6. It's a lot harder to tie a knot to hold a rope to a tow ring using a length of four inches than it is using a length of one and a half feet.

...perfectly good sense and no cuss words.

If I had been talking about the people who have been preventing all those things from happening it would've made perfectly good sense and contained plenty of cuss words.

Did you suddenly get religion after the earthquake?

Nah. The fact that the National Cathedral got significantly trashed and my copies of "The Origin Of Species" and "The Life Of Brian" came through unscathed pushed me even farther in the opposite direction.

Rick,

To me, the big thing was not perfecting a rigid suspension system.

1. All aircraft are compromises. I'll go out on a limb and say that paragliders are acceptably safe for flying smooth ridge lift in relatively light wind.

2. If we did rigid suspension our planes would probably be better off in tumble environments but they would also likely be heavier, draggier, more expensive, and less portable. And they still wouldn't be tumble proof.

3. I'll go out on another limb and say that - at something way under the downside costs of rigid suspension - we could install good aerodynamic pneumatic wheels on gliders and dwarf the safety payoff we'd get from rigid suspension. Let's get the cheap, easy, high bang for the buck fixes out of the way first.

And then there's the wild air that will eat you alive, rip the bar out of your hands and snap stuff.

Every aircraft has limits with respect to what it can take. After coming very close to being killed after being violently overwhelmed and thrown out of control in some afternoon conditions in the South Bowl of Jockeys Ridge I determined it wasn't a good idea to fly in those afternoon conditions in the South Bowl of Jockeys Ridge.

That's what emergency parachutes are for.

With a hang glider if you're in parachute mode you're in luck mode. If those conditions are predictable I think it's advisable to stay out of them - with or without rigid suspension and/or a parachute.

A little more commentary on:

It only took hang gliding 7 years or so to get it right.

1. I'm satisfied with the degree of rightness that came with HGMA certification. I'm comfortable sending my nephew up on a certified glider and won't worry about it being divergent, breakable, or uncontrollable.

2. The gliders themselves are the ONLY thing in hang gliding I'm comfortable sending my nephew up with.

3. Glider certification and certified gliders didn't come about through the efforts of the flyer community. They came about through the efforts of ENGINEERS and DESIGNERS who were probably also all flyers and pilots but were typically people with twenty times the brains and senses of responsibility of the idiots to whom they were marketing. In attempting to build a hang gliding organization those are the folk upon whom we should be modeling.

[Free]

.. a lot of stuff burned, fell down, and got squashed.

You don't explain the speed at which these buildings collapsed into their own footprint.
Building seven wasn't hit by a plane. BBC reported it's collapse 20 minutes before it happened.
The BBC may be psychic, but I would bet against that being the case.

I simply asked for an engineer's explanation of the warped physics that could account for what happened that day.
Still no answer.

ENGINEERS and DESIGNERS .......... typically people with twenty times the brains and senses of responsibility of the idiots to whom they were marketing.

[Rick Masters]

BobK wrote:
You asked how we can structure ourselves to prevent being corrupted. The answer is easy - we stick to our basic goal of promoting hang gliding. One of the big advantages that we have over USHPA is that we don't have to make any money. We don't have an Executive Director or an office staff to support. We don't have expensive Board meetings to pay for. So we're not forced to change our direction or dedication to remain profitable as USHPA does. Everyone in the US Hawks works for the love of hang gliding.

Speaking from experience, the Benevolent Dictator approach will work well with 80 members. It'll be really tough with 800 members. It's a ridiculous fantasy with 1000 members. Somewhere around 200 -- 400 members you will need a paid Executive Director and a part-time staff. There's nothing wrong with this setup. The money, organizational structure and efficiency is not what corrupts an organization.

It's the Board and who the Board members represent that creates the problem. There are very important controls that have to be put in place to prevent the Board from being taken over by those with agendas contrary to the mission or who would hijack the organization by redefining the mission to suit their purposes (as we have seen happen to the USHGA). One path to ruin is to allow several levels of membership that grow in influence with the size of a "donation." Another is to allow secrecy of discussions.

A clear and concise mission statement must be incorporated into a signed membership agreement. Proficiency and Type ratings must be issued. And I would go so far as to suggest, in light as to what has occurred with the USHGA, that biwingual pilots receive only half a vote, paraglider pilots receive non-voting membership, and any prospective Director with financial ties to paragliding be denied.

This may seem extreme and less than urgent, but if the US Hawks show signs of becoming successful, those who pulled the rug out from under the sport of hang gliding will at first snipe, then attack, and the Hawks had best have their defenses in place at that moment and not be caught scurrying around as the walls collapse.

[Rick Masters]

Tad wrote: Glider certification and certified gliders didn't come about through the efforts of the flyer community. They came about through the efforts of ENGINEERS and DESIGNERS who were probably also all flyers and pilots

Wasn't it Roy Haggard and Dick Boone who were responsible for the full luff fix? Does anyone know the real details?
Thanks.

[SamKellner]

BobK wrote:
You asked how we can structure ourselves to prevent being corrupted. The answer is easy - we stick to our basic goal of promoting hang gliding. One of the big advantages that we have over USHPA is that we don't have to make any money. We don't have an Executive Director or an office staff to support. We don't have expensive Board meetings to pay for. So we're not forced to change our direction or dedication to remain profitable as USHPA does. Everyone in the US Hawks works for the love of hang gliding.

Speaking from experience, the Benevolent Dictator approach will work well with 80 members. It'll be really tough with 800 members. It's a ridiculous fantasy with 1000 members. Somewhere around 200 -- 400 members you will need a paid Executive Director and a part-time staff. There's nothing wrong with this setup. The money, organizational structure and efficiency is not what corrupts an organization.

It's the Board and who the Board members represent that creates the problem. There are very important controls that have to be put in place to prevent the Board from being taken over by those with agendas contrary to the mission or who would hijack the organization by redefining the mission to suit their purposes (as we have seen happen to the USHGA). One path to ruin is to allow several levels of membership that grow in influence with the size of a "donation." Another is to allow secrecy of discussions.

A clear and concise mission statement must be incorporated into a signed membership agreement. Proficiency and Type ratings must be issued. And I would go so far as to suggest, in light as to what has occurred with the USHGA, that biwingual pilots receive only half a vote, paraglider pilots receive non-voting membership, and any prospective Director with financial ties to paragliding be denied.

This may seem extreme and less than urgent, but if the US Hawks show signs of becoming successful, those who pulled the rug out from under the sport of hang gliding will at first snipe, then attack, and the Hawks had best have their defenses in place at that moment and not be caught scurrying around as the walls collapse.

Rick,

That sounds spot on to me . Every bit of it. Even with a voting mechanism to prevent being taken over. We know not to go there .
Oh, to have a ...... US Hang Gliding...... assn, for hanglider enthusiasts that needs a BOD. That would be progress .
IMO, what BobK said, didn't suggest the need of a dictator. I know he's argueed for Roberts Rules of Order, that's not a dictatorship.
Somewhere on this forum there is a mission statement that Bob came up with. Someone post a link, pls .
I could support it for sure.

In the revised BOD agenda, one of the site committee? items mentions establishing new flying sites. How many times have we heard that UShPA does not do that? Maybe it is an indicator that more members are realizing that UShPA can not do what is really needed to grow or even sustain HG in the US.

There's some chatter on ozforum about how far off track UShPA really is, to the point of disregarding safety, to cover their a**, and protect their paycheck. Reading the posts, it is obvious that is going off in the mind of some that never thought it before. Of course, that's when Forbes chimes in with his spin doctor bs.

IMO, Lisa Tate was a most recent/good example of having an agenda that supported very few of the membership, especially Southwest Tx.

Great post Rick. Let's work together, for the love of Hanf Gliding.

,
Sam

PS I think you are correct about the first to start HGMA. It is in "Big Blue Sky", about that, I think. I'll watch it again.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hello Fellow Hawks!!

I'm sorry that I've been busy for much of September and haven't been keeping up.

And speaking of not so old business, Bob, didn't quite answer my recent physics question about 9-11 and you haven't either. I'm not asking you to engage in any discussion of who, what, when and where.. just the physics of 9-11, short and sweet.

I'm not claiming any expertise in building demolition, but I think it would take a tremendous amount of force to impart any rotation to a structure of that size. So even if one side of the burning structure were to fail first (which it surely did), the momentary difference in the support would not be able to impart much rotation to the falling upper structure. And once the failure of the remaining structural elements (like downtubes) began to bend, they would offer very little resistance (like a downtube with a 45 degree bend under compression). So given the massive amount of structure overhead, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable that it would fall nearly straight down with very little rotation.

But I have to admit that visual image of it collapsing so vertically does seem unreal and unbelievable.

Glider certification and certified gliders didn't come about through the efforts of the flyer community. They came about through the efforts of ENGINEERS and DESIGNERS who were probably also all flyers and pilots but were typically people with twenty times the brains and senses of responsibility of the idiots to whom they were marketing. In attempting to build a hang gliding organization those are the folk upon whom we should be modeling.

I would guess that certification came about through the efforts of pilots who were engineers rather than engineers who were pilots. Since there wasn't a lot of money to be made, I would also guess that it was the love (or lust) for flight that drove them to apply their engineering talents to the sport. But I would stand corrected if it can be shown that the majority of engineers involved had no interest in flight themselves.

Rick and Sam,

Thanks for your great insights, thoughts, and comments. I am generally in agreement with your postings.

A clear and concise mission statement must be incorporated into a signed membership agreement. Proficiency and Type ratings must be issued. And I would go so far as to suggest, in light as to what has occurred with the USHGA, that biwingual pilots receive only half a vote, paraglider pilots receive non-voting membership, and any prospective Director with financial ties to paragliding be denied.

I don't know about penalizing people for being biwingual, but here are two articles from the bylaws of the Torrey Hawks (http://torreyhawks.org):

Article II - Purpose The Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club is dedicated to promoting and protecting the sport of Hang Gliding at the Torrey Pines Gliderport.

Article III - Membership The membership of the Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club shall consist of individuals whose applications for membership have been accepted by the Association. Voting members must hold a USHPA rating of H4 or above and have flown a hang glider at the Torrey Pines Gliderport within the previous three years.

I think the US Hawks should have similar articles. The H4 rating was appropriate for the Torrey Hawks because Torrey Pines is an H4 site. I think that might be too high for the US Hawks, but some serious commitment to the sport should be used as a yardstick for voting. You could probably say that an H2 with no paragliding experience is more committed to hang gliding than an H2/P4. So there is some merit to penalizing members for "alternate sports", but I would personally lobby against that because it also penalizes people who truly love flying. Right now, the bigger problem is building our membership to the point where voting would matter.

With regard to a board and paid positions, I think we can do whatever we feel will work. I don't have any constraints other than trying to keep the organization doing the will of the members. Humans have a long history of creating power structures which end up serving those in power. The US Constitution was a high water mark in building power structures which serve the people. It took some very smart people a considerable amount of time to strike a balance of power that's served us for 200 years. That's what we should strive to do in the US Hawks.

Thanks to each of you (Tad, Warren, Rick, and Sam) for your continued participation in this forum. I'm sure we don't all agree on lots of things, but if we can each try to be respectful of one another, we might be able to build something here. That's my hope.

Bob Kuczewski

[TadEareckson]

1. Having on the wall a framed piece of paper from a university contributes absolutely NOTHING - as far as I'm concerned - to one's status as an engineer in this game. If you're flying with a brake lever velcroed to the downtube, a bent pin release on your shoulder, a loop of 130 pound Greenspot on the end of your bridle, a Hewett Bridle, a Pitch and Lockout Limiter, a two foot long one point bridle, or (I'll make a lot friends with this one) a backup loop on your keel - I don't care who you are or what your piece of paper says - you're not an engineer (or, for that matter, a pilot either).

2. Wilbur and Orville were physicists, designers, and engineers first and pilots way second.

3. It's the designers and engineers who write the owners' manuals that tell the pilots what they can and can't do with their creations.

4. I think it's a real safe bet that there are zero people who have ever been involved in hang glider design who weren't at least moderately rabid about flying but - nowadays - they represent a totally microscopic percentage of the people you'll find dangling over a bluff or under a cloud. (And no, none of them has ever made any money.)

5. Name two or three glider divers not currently or formerly part of a factory operation (Wills Wing, Moyes, Seedwings, et cetera) who have in the past thirty years developed something useful - excluding electronics and T-shirts - that goes up as part of or with a glider.

I know what we have in the way of a "pilot" population and I'm astronomically unimpressed. On that Davis Show traffic to which Sam is referring Mark Forbes is telling us that - for all intents and purposes - after three dozen years of USHGA being run by "pilots" it's still so totally incapable of figuring out which way is up that it's impossible for it to come up with sets of sane, clearly defined standards and procedures to limit the carnage to a few really deserving individuals because everything's still just a matter of arguments and opinions (mostly Jim Rooney's).

I don't know how US Hawks is gonna evolve into something better bet we've definitely gotta start by putting a lid on the ol' "all men are created equal" crap and work on some kind of meritocracy.