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Re: Jack Axaopoulos accuses Bob Kuczewski of Voter Fraud

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:17 am

Summary for New Visitors to this Topic

It's been over a year now since Jack Axaopoulos conducted that crooked election, and there are now people interested in this topic who were not the original witnesses to the fraudulent HGAA election. So for their benefit I'd like to offer a more complete description of what happened.

I had founded the HGAA around June of 2010, but I had allowed Jack Axaopoulos to create a forum where we would conduct our business discussions on line. Those discussions ended up leading to an election for a new Chairman after our original consensus Chairman (Scott Wise) was challenged by Jack Axaopoulos. All of the HGAA discussions and voting in that election were done on the web forum which was completely controlled by Jack Axaopoulos. There were 2 factions in that election:

    The first faction was generally led by John Wright and John Borton.
    The second faction was generally led by Scott Wise and Bob Kuczewski.

Jack Axaopoulos (who controlled the forum) clearly supported the first faction.

When the candidates were being nominated, we had a deadline of midnight to accept our nominations. I accepted my nomination, but stated very clearly in my acceptance post that I would withdraw my nomination and support Scott if he decided to run before the deadline. And just prior to midnight, Scott posted that he would accept his nomination.

The next morning, Jack Axaopoulos took 2 actions which were improper with regard to the election:

  1. He removed my post where I endorsed Scott and where I said that I would withdraw if Scott accepted.
  2. He created a ballot that included both myself and Scott along with John Wright and John Borton.

It was clear to me (and many others) that Jack did that with the explicit hope of splitting the vote for Scott and having some of those votes cast for me. Imagine, for example, that the Republican party submitted one candidate for inclusion on the ballot, but the voting "authority" ended up including a second Republican candidate. That would invalidate the election right there. That's exactly what Jack had done.

But since the voting had already begun when I discovered the error the next day, I wrote to Jack and John Borton and several others asking to have my votes transferred to Scott since I was NOT a candidate. This was reasonable because Scott and I were of the same faction ("party") and it was also reasonable because I had withdrawn from the election and asked my supporters to vote for Scott.

Now you can debate whether that's the best solution to this problem or not. But since I made a public request for that action and I included the opponent candidates in that request, there is no way that it can be considered fraud. It was much more similar to asking for any ballots with "hanging chads" to be counted for that candidate. The election authority could decide whether that was a reasonable request or not. But it would never be considered fraudulent to simply make that request.

But Jack didn't want to honor that request, and instead he claimed that I was committing "voter fraud". I immediately replied that if he didn't want to credit Scott with votes cast for me (when I wasn't a candidate) then he should simply restart the election. After all, the vote had only been underway for a few hours, and our total voting team was less than a few dozen people who could be easily notified.

But Jack Axaopoulos refused to do that either because he wanted to be sure that the vote remained split. So he not only continued to claim voter fraud, but he also continued to conduct an election with me on the ballot to draw votes from Scott. In the end, John Wright won the election, but his leadership was not widely respected and the HGAA ended up dying soon after that fiasco.

The most important point here is that there was NEVER any attempt to conduct "voter fraud" because my request had been circulated as widely as possible (within the locked down forum), and I had even included the opposition members and at least one of the opposition candidates in my request. Fraud requires an attempt to deceive, and that element was never present in my actions. I was making a legitimate request to correct a flawed election ballot that was created by a crooked election authority.

I would also like to note that shortly after this crooked election, Jack Axaopoulos - who had volunteered and been trusted to register and run the torreyhawksforum.org web site - locked down that site without any authority from the President (myself) or our Board of Directors. Jack not only locked down the forum (preventing any replies), but he also defaced every page with claims of misconduct (including "voter fraud") against myself and Scott Wise. Jack Axaopoulos also abused his administrator authority and actually changed other people's posts on that forum as he has done on other forums which he has moderated.
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos accuses Bob Kuczewski of Voter Fraud

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:07 pm

Jack Axaopoulos continues to mischaracterize what happened during the 2010 HGAA.

I've posted the record of what happened above. Since Jack Axaopoulos continues to cling to his mischaracterization, I would appreciate posts by anyone who remembers what happened.

Thanks.
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos accuses Bob Kuczewski of Voter Fraud

Postby Free » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:43 pm

Some people used to call Jack Axopopolus,- Bunny Boy, on the old yahoo lists and maybe even before that on the Utah.edu list that ran the first
Hang gliding web list. I don't know who started it but Jack didn't like it too much so of course the nick name was used often.
Jack wanted a lot of attention and he got it. Those days were the wild west on the internet. Everything was on one scrolling page
The University that sponsored the list called it a "lab" and probably studied the interactions of crazy people in their computer psychology classes.

It became too much for them and it was shut down. Politics, gun rights and people that thought they were sky gods.
There was just too much uncontrolled discourse that the sheeple indoctrination center had to shut it down. Fingers were pointed and I
got some blame... a lot of blame for the University's consternation.

A Yahoo list was set up and it too was a simple scrolling page. Wild west again for a few years.
Went head to head with Jack Axopopolus many times peer to peer. He used to want to jump in and mix it up until he lost the
arguments so much. The censorship started and Jack and Davis took the opportunity to start their own money generating hg list.
Now they always win the arguments, as cowards. They memory hole what they don't like. Davis is more strategic,
Jack Axopopolus is more cowardly.

Jack was also kind of a child prodigy to hear him tell it. Never saw him fly and maybe he doesn't now. The .org is just his ad revenue play thing.
John Borton, mentored the child prodigy for some reason.
Jack Ax booted me once for using the term "in bed with' referring to Jack and Dennis Cavagnaro, when they were trying to gain a parasitic screening position for new interest pilot wanna-be-s. Me thinks Jack has a homo-complex. Now that I think about it JB had quite a fling with a female pilot that had more in common with a teen age boy's physique than any woman I ever met. ... maybe I've said too much..
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos accuses Bob Kuczewski of Voter Fraud

Postby wingspan33 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:27 pm

Bob Kuczewski wrote:Jack Axaopoulos continues to mischaracterize what happened during the 2010 HGAA.

I've posted the record of what happened above. Since Jack Axaopoulos continues to cling to his mischaracterization, I would appreciate posts by anyone who remembers what happened.

Thanks.


If people read this whole thread from the beginning it will be clear that the person once again screaming "voter fraud" over at SG.org is intentionally misrepresenting the facts. Bunny Boy/Jack the Ax is the one who Intentionally MANIPULATED the VOTE on that day back in July of 2010.

Having the Bully Pulpit over on the Jack Show, he can say anything he wants and so far has gotten away with it. But the very real and actual proof would prove Jack to be a liar ten times over. If I were him I wouldn't be so willing to slander people on a public web site. But he's not me. I'm actually rational and do my best to maintain a truthful and moral viewpoint.

Sadly, some people have problems with achieving certain basic standards. Yea. A good title for someone like that could be "Mr./Ms. Standards Gap".
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos accuses Bob Kuczewski of Voter Fraud

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:23 pm

wingspan33 wrote:If people read this whole thread from the beginning it will be clear that the person once again screaming "voter fraud" over at SG.org is intentionally misrepresenting the facts. Bunny Boy/Jack the Ax is the one who Intentionally MANIPULATED the VOTE on that day back in July of 2010.


You would know ... since you were there!!      Thanks!!

wingspan33 wrote:Having the Bully Pulpit over on the Jack Show, he can say anything he wants and so far has gotten away with it.


That's exactly why we're banned. Jack (like David Jebb) thought that kicking people out would make them just go away and disappear from the flying community. That's probably true of some people ... but not people who really love the sport of hang gliding.

It's good to still have you here Scott!!
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Re: Jack Axaopoulos accuses Bob Kuczewski of Voter Fraud

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:02 pm

It's been over 8 years now since Jack Axaopoulos rigged the HGAA election. That organization soon failed under Jack's oppression, and it's been dead ever since.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Hawks has continued to grow, and Joe Faust recently came up with the brilliant idea of objective and non-member-based ratings (USHGRS). Jack Axaopoulos sees any national hang gliding web site as competition, so he not only banned Joe, but also programmed his forum to change the posts of anyone who mentions USHGRS (or the U.S. Hawks).

Jack then threatened to ban anyone who mentions either of these sites claiming that any such mention was "shilling" for the banned members.

So Frank Colver made a reasonable request to know who's been banned on hanggliding.org. The U.S. Hawks posts such a list, and I've just noticed that kitestrings.org does as well.

Here's Frank's reasonable request:

Frank Colver wrote:Requesting the names of banned persons

I was accused of "shilling" for a banned person. I would like to prevent that happening again in the future. I have no idea how many "persona non grata" folks there were on this forum, who might cause me to accidentally "shill" again, if I mention a name that I did not know was banned.

I'm requesting that the moderator provide a place to click on, which would provide a list of those who have been banned since the inception of this forum. This would be very helpful in preventing accidental "shilling" by any current forum participants.

Currently there are only two banned names that can be clicked on and identified on this forum but I know there are more. I won't mention those and risk "shilling" again.

Thanking the moderator in advance for providing us access to the list of the banned.

Trying to do the right thing, :?
Frank Colver


Jack Axaopoulos immediately locked the topic and threatened to ban Frank:

Jack Axaopoulos wrote:Not going to play these silly bobK games. People know what you guys are up to and they report it to me. Members here are not idiots. You knew for a fact the person in question was banned. Either be a part of this community and leave bob and his little crew of extremists out of it, or just stay on the other forum. Not giving them ammo to badger and harass more people here. Have no patience for the insanity spilling over from bobs site. Dont do it again. Final warning. 

Its sad to see you so easily fooled by Bob and crew. He plays a good game. Fooled me once too. But there is a reason he's banned from everywhere. The guy even asked me to blatantly RIG an election. But I guess you believe all his BULLSHIT EXCUSES even though I have 100% evidence.

Last time I will ask you. Leave all things Bob off this site. We're all sick of his crap.


The relavent part of Jack's post (with regard to this topic) is this quote:

Jack Axaopoulos wrote:The guy even asked me to blatantly RIG an election. But I guess you believe all his BULLSHIT EXCUSES even though I have 100% evidence.


If anyone were interested in getting to the bottom of this, they might start by asking Jack Axaopoulos to present his "100% evidence". They might even ask Jack if the following text (from the first post in this topic) is an accurate copy of the PM sent on July 28th, 2010 which Jack claims was "voter fraud". It's addressed to Jack himself and to one of the opposition candidates.

Please Redistribute Votes
Sent: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:33 am
From: bobk
To: sg bobk SkyPilot S C Wise ThinAirDesigns


Jack (cc Transition Team Members - Note that PM would not send to all!!),

I just noticed that you've included me in the list of candidates. Yet my own candidate post (which you removed from the forum) stated:

"Finally, I'd like to comment that I fully endorse Scott Wise as Transition Team Chairman in addition to myself. In fact, if Scott does accept his nomination, then I will withdraw my own candidacy in support of Scott."

Scott did accept his nomination shortly after my post, and I am therefore not a candidate.

So I ask that all of the votes for me be redistributed to Scott since that was my posted recommendation prior to the start of voting.

Thanks.
Bob Kuczewski

Here's the full quote of my original posting:

bobk wrote:Members of the Transition Team and Members of the HGAA,

I'd like to start by thanking Hgaaflyer for his nomination of myself and all other members of the Transition Team. I hope we will end up being deserving of your endorsement.

On June 04, 2010 I posted a "Call for Leaders and Founders" on hanggliding.org, and that started the ball rolling toward the HGAA. It's been an interesting 54 days. Those 54 days have been full of great excitement and some terrible disappointments. Yet here we are, undaunted, and still trying to go forward. I thank everyone who's come this far, and I hope we can all keep going together.

Having said that, I feel that the HGAA is at a crossroads. We are no longer just one man's dream. We're now the melded dreams of many men and women who want to see a better organization to support our love of flight. I hope we will do just that. But we have some fundamental decisions to make, and I think these decisions will determine what kind of an organization we'll grow up to be.

As you may know, I was on USHPA's Board of Directors, and I attended 5 of the 6 USHPA Board meetings over the last 3 years. I've seen how their board operates, and I've seen what works and what doesn't work. From that perspective, I've come to believe that the greatest problem with USHPA has been a lack of insight by the general membership into what the Board does and how it does it. All of their other problems flow from that one single failing. So when I began contemplating a new national organization, I immediately thought about what we could do better. The list (as you might imagine) was pretty long, but at the top of it was accountability to our members. That means that the members should always know how we vote and how we conduct ourselves as representatives of the HGAA and particularly in all HGAA meetings and discussions. I think that is probably my primary goal for the new organization - transparency.

Well, for an organization with no money, that turned out to be easier than I might have expected. We live in the information age, and we've got forums and other on-line tools that allow us to hold "virtual board meetings" that are 100% visible to every member of the HGAA. What could be better? There's only one small hitch. The people who run the HGAA have to agree that what we say in these "virtual board meetings" will not (as in "NEVER EVER") be touched or modified in any way. That's a commitment that I am willing to make. In fact, it's so important to me that I'm willing to make it a term of my continuation on the HGAA Transition Team, and a fundamental plank of my platform as Transition Team Chairman.

Finally, I'd like to comment that I fully endorse Scott Wise as Transition Team Chairman in addition to myself. In fact, if Scott does accept his nomination, then I will withdraw my own candidacy in support of Scott. I do this because I think that Scott has demonstrated the proper mix of authority and tolerance. This is a hang gliding association and it's made up of people who have a great deal of independence and self confidence. I believe our members would prefer a leader who respects that independence, and treats us with the respect that Scott has shown during his tenure as Transition Team Chair. Let's get back to where we were when we started and get behind Scott again to lead us forward.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski


Now if I had been trying to commit "voter fraud" why in the world was I sending my request to all of the members possible ... including the opposing candidates?

Is that the "100% evidence" Jack is claiming he has? It's been sitting here in plain view (posted by me) since October 1st, 2010. Maybe Jack could confirm that for everyone?
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