[Bill Cummings]

What were the requirements the USHGA adopted that were tested by the HGMA before combining HG with PG?

Would negative G requirements and pictures of hang gliders past and present clear all doubt in the minds of reasonably prudent individuals as to what the US Hawks are about?
Later Edit:
I see it as mostly my fault that we are trying to throw such a wide net over several random ideas. Could we nail down this HG definition before taking up the next discussion?

[JoeF]

What is a hang glider?

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Similarity case: What is a kite: aKiteIs http://www.energykitesystems.net/akiteis.html

I bet to narrow how one will invest time, funds, focus: There will be appreciated that there are types of hang gliders; an org may decide to specialize on types of HGs that meet certain criteria. Setting up such criteria for decision making as to where to put one's time, funds, and focus is a task that might be relevant here around.

I was teasing: hung pilot that is firmly coupled to a an unpowered gliding governable wing that may be carried and launched and landed by the pilot in normal winds while having the wind shape-keep without de-shaping when facing normal wind helicities. Such may recognize that there are scores of ways to launch into the gliding flight.

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  I move to have this entire discussion thread be placed in open forum even before the questions are decided by the TBD.  

[Bill Cummings]

What is a hang glider?

1. :
2. :
...
56. :
...
124.:
...
...
Similarity case: What is a kite: aKiteIs http://www.energykitesystems.net/akiteis.html

I bet to narrow how one will invest time, funds, focus: There will be appreciated that there are types of hang gliders; an org may decide to specialize on types of HGs that meet certain criteria. Setting up such criteria for decision making as to where to put one's time, funds, and focus is a task that might be relevant here around.

I was teasing: hung pilot that is firmly coupled to a an unpowered gliding governable wing that may be carried and launched and landed by the pilot in normal winds while having the wind shape-keep without de-shaping when facing normal wind helicities. Such may recognize that there are scores of ways to launch into the gliding flight.

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  I move to have this entire discussion thread be placed in open forum even before the questions are decided by the TBD.  

We might get lost even more so in committee.
Joe might you amend, rather than the entire thread, for now just, "What is a hang glider?"
With a note of its importance since hang gliding's description was redefined once in our past midstream and our new goal is to see that we don't stray off course again.
EDIT: I would like to see Rick's thoughts on this.

[JoeF]

I amend or withdraw my motion, as no second has occurred.
And I support BillC's notion motion. What is a hang glider?
That topic may emerge again in open forum with the note BillC suggests.
However, an org could focus on a type of hang glider, following the lead of interest groups dedicated to certain types of boats or certain types of gliders.
One may aim to have an org focused on a subset of boats or a subset of glider or a subset of hang gliders. Clarifying just what one wants to keep in focus within a certain org seems to be the challenge. There will always be some factions seeing hang glider superset as holding many types of hang gliders, particularly PGs, say.

[Bob Kuczewski]

I'm sorry that I've been at work all day and hadn't had a chance to review this topic until just now.

Joe, I'm not at all opposed to moving this to the public area, and I would second your motion if you'd like to reintroduce it. I would also like to get more feedback from other people who are not currently on the Board.

I also just re-read (or re-skimmed) the entire topic, and I have to laugh that my off-the-top-of-my-head comments yesterday (November 16th) were almost identical to my comments from April 25th:

      US Hawks rather than USHHGA.
      The term "airframed" is redundant when used with "hang glider".
      No need to mention paragliding (or golf) in our mission statement.

That gives me an idea. Maybe rather than trying to vote on an entire mission statement, maybe we should vote on the "elements" that we think should be in - or not in - the mission statement. Once we have the elements established, then we can take shots at the actual verbiage to string them all together. We could start with those three elements right there and see what everyone thinks.

[JoeF]

Offer for mission statement discussion:

The national hang gliding association U.S. Hawks is dedicated to promoting and protecting recreational hang gliding in the USA.

[Bill Cummings]

I can go with that Joe.

[Bob Kuczewski]

The national hang gliding association U.S. Hawks is dedicated to promoting and protecting recreational hang gliding in the USA.

I think the word "national" is redundant since we've got "U.S." and "USA" already in there. And if we're going to use "hang gliding association", we might as well put it after "US Hawks" because that's the full name of our association (see the logo at the top of the page). So consistent usage of "US Hawks Hang Gliding Association" would give:

The U.S. Hawks Hang Gliding Association is dedicated to promoting and protecting recreational hang gliding in the USA.

Now the only sticking point left is the word "recreational". I've never taken a dime from the sport (I didn't even file for travel expenses when I was a USHPA Director), but there are people who are involved in commercial aspects of hang gliding (schools, manufacturers, etc). Do we want them to think that the US Hawks doesn't support what they do? Do we want our mission statement to single them out for exclusion?

Maybe it's time for us to post a small number of suggestions and take a straw vote to see which directions we would like to go and which elements we might like to see in the mission statement. What does everyone think?

[JoeF]

Nice reductions, BobK.

Talking point on "recreational":
1. To promote and protect recreational hang gliding could well include any action, program, or process that does just that: promote and protect recreational hang gliding. Certainly recreational hang gliding's health could include such actions as having various relations with commercial operations of a wide sort. Recreational hang gliding will be using offers from commercial suppliers of parts, wings, things, instruction, information, site managers, etc. ...no end to the potential offers. Any commercial agent blessing recreational hang gliding will be noticed by U. S. Hawks HGA and its members via many ways. [ manufacturer, instrument supplier, materials supplier, instruction supplier, product supplier, space rental supplier, ramp supplier, information supplier, insurance supplier, etc.] Yet, the U. S. Hawks HGA would not be affiliated with commercial agents. Commercial entities would be themselves. Generally commerce is fundamentally important for recreational hang gliding to be robust. Having a simple mission statement as BobK just stated above fully allows for giant respect for commercial agents that bless recreational hang gliding.

2. The very important and broad immunity for landowners who permit (without charge and without invitation) recreational hang gliding could notice the premier national hang gliding association is keyed pointedly to "recreational hang gliding". Commercial events and events that involve charging and inviting are organisms that are to be handled in themselves; such events are on top of "recreational hang gliding" and may serve "recreational hang gliding" via their special aspects; yet U. S. Hawks need not be involved directly in any commercial event or events of charge or invitation. U. S. Hawks could stay getting very good at promoting and protecting recreational hang gliding with trying to have hands into every hang gliding pot.

3. There are probably very many niche hang gliding activities that flow from "recreational hang gliding" that won't attract much commercial attention.

The mission statement proposed in above post does not push commerce out. Commerce actually could see the mission statement as: "Hey, I could sell something to recreational hang gliding! I could help supply some need of those recreational hang gliding pilots! Those recreational hang gliding pilots will probably want wings, harnesses, instruments, books, fancy inclines, launch machines, launches, rides, drivers, materials, plans, clothes, food, goggles, helmets, body-guards wears, Safe-Splat assemblies, imprinted cups and plates, bumper stickers, special-skill instruction, kite systems, energy kites, towing gear, specialized manuals, bags, repairs, bling, models, guides, inspections, reviews, ... Indeed, the more people really enjoying recreational hang gliding could be a magnet attracting ever more commercial interests.
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adding note:
Adding: Recreation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreation

And: Various "parks and recreation" departments may feel higher affinity to a "recreational" focused flow.
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U. S. Hawks HGA could have spaces in its communication platforms that would be sold to commercial interests: advertising space. Collected funds would go toward promoting and protecting recreational hang gliding in the USA.

The proposed mission statement holds only positive presentation; such provides an open door for commercial interests to do their good things that would hopefully support that very mission. As a commerce entity, I need feel no rejection or shun by the mission statement. Some commerce will occur to press for directions that will tend to "vanillaize" matters, as the commercial entity moves aggressively to have their particular slant and interest be popularized.

[Bill Cummings]

Abbreviated quote by Joe F.,

“----The proposed mission statement holds only positive presentation; such provides an open door for commercial interests to do their good things that would hopefully support that very mission. As a commerce entity, I need feel no rejection or shun by the mission statement. Some commerce will occur to press for directions that will tend to "vanillaize" matters, as the commercial entity moves aggressively to have their particular slant and interest be popularized.”

This last paragraph raises my anxiety level.

As things stand now USHPA members are financially supporting commerce interests due to the infiltration of the Regional Directorships by business interests.

As demonstrated they made decisions that advances business interest at the expense of hang gliding rating Observers to name one.

Currently some have not abstained from RD voting even in light of their conflict of interest.

There needs to be, further down our decision making, language that puts a stop to this untenable situation.
I agree with Bob on the redundancy discussion.
I agree with Joe that we need some buffer that will keep the US Hawks HGA out of the insurance hole that we now find ourselves in with the USHPA.