Personal Journals about Hang Gliding

Re: Hang gliders don't do this

Postby Rick Masters » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:44 am

It is my understanding that hang glider pilots who begin paragliding have a higher rate of injuries and death because they are used to flying in turbulent air and are therefore more likely to encounter collapse.

For a hang glider pilot to switch over to a paraglider, he must disregard the importance of the airframe that protects him from collapse. I have referred to this form of denialism as creating a mythology of the airframe. In other words, one must take aeronautical engineering and turn it into a myth. This is stupidity.

Mythology of the Airframe 2011
https://web.archive.org/web/20120104172726/http://www.cometclones.com/mythology2011.htm
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Re: Hang gliders don't do this

Postby wingspan33 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:51 am

Rick,

That sounds like a double edged sword for the HG pilot who decides to also become a collapsible canopy occupant. They begin flying a less safe wing without the mind set of just how much less safe it is.

It appears from what you've said that collapsible canopy occupants who later begin to fly hang gliders are perhaps "safer" on their air framed wings since they still think of (mild to moderate) turbulence as "dangerous". However, they still have the inherent problems associated with also flying collapsible canopies.

On the other hand, hang glider pilots who begin to also fly collapsible canopies, may have a tendency to NOT see (mild to moderate) turbulence as dangerous. Having a hang glider pilot's mind set, they may get themselves into more tight spots than a (only) collapsible canopy flier - who knows better.

There's a third group that might be the safest collapsible canopy occupants. That would be long term Advanced level hang glider pilots who know and understand the "turbulence problems" inherent with collapsible canopies. They would be very likely to ONLY fly their collapsible canopy when there was very low, or no, threat of turbulence. Basic early morning of late evening "sled ride" conditions may be an example.
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Re: Hang gliders don't do this

Postby Rick Masters » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:03 am

I'm sure my flying mostly in Owens Valley colors my perception, but I remain convinced that one never knows if or when turbulence can be encountered, so it is best to be well-armed when venturing into the wilderness of the sky.
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Re: Hang gliders don't do this

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:23 pm

wingspan33 wrote:There's a third group that might be the safest collapsible canopy occupants. That would be long term Advanced level hang glider pilots who know and understand the "turbulence problems" inherent with collapsible canopies. They would be very likely to ONLY fly their collapsible canopy when there was very low, or no, threat of turbulence. Basic early morning of late evening "sled ride" conditions may be an example.


You might remember the death of Pam Hargett at Torrey in the spring of 2012. The air at Torrey is generally very smooth, but I believe that her death was caused by mechanical turbulence from a change in wind direction that she might not have expected. The topic was discussed in the Torrey Hawks forum here:

    http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1031

It was also discussed on paraglidingforum.com here:

    http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=47773

However, parts of that discussion were removed by the forum "moderators" and I was subsequently banned for trying to point out some of the problems that might have contributed to her death. They do still have an incident report allegedly from David Ledford:

Incident Report: (as written by David Ledford)

Date: 5/12/2012
Name: Pam Hargett
PG
Address: XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX SC 29349
USHGA # 86431
Weather Conditions: Clear: Wind W – WNW 10 mph

In your own words, describe what occurred:
Glider flying from north to south at cliff level or 10% below. As per eye witness on the beach "Left side wing (cliff side) partial collapse, glider rotated into the cliff”. Pilot had no room for recovery. l2:00 early in the flying day. Flying started at 10:30. Pam started flying at 11:30. The air was a little unstable due to the early thermal condition. Pilot was not flying out of bounds, and was flying in an area we all fly.
Evaluation: Partial collapse with no room to recover. Pilot has over 500 flights and 400 hrs at this site. Pilot was conservative, safe, and proficient. Note: County of San Diego Medical Examiner Michael Ellano ID#5 Cause of Death: Accidental-Multiple Blunt Force.

Witnesses:
David Ledford
USHGA# 16498


I captured the wind direction history for that day (see the Torrey Hawks link above), and it showed a northwest switch at a time coinciding with her death. Her collapse happened along a part of the ridge where she might have experienced mechanical turbulence from palm trees on a projecting land mass that would have been directly upwind of her location in such a northwest wind (see maps and diagrams at the Torrey Hawks link). I dared to question what kind of training she might have gotten for such circumstances from the Torrey crew. A banning from paraglidingforum.com was my "reward" for my investigation of the incident.

It's hard to believe that it will be 4 years ago this spring.

How many deaths will it take till we know,
that too many people have died?

The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind.
The answer is blowing in the wind.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
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Re: Hang gliders don't do this

Postby wingspan33 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:22 pm

Bob,

Your post reminds me of a flight I had at a flying site called Willow Creek in Colorado. After a wonderful flight I came in to top land and was hit with some SERIOUS (rotor?) turbulence! I was unexpectedly turned toward some power lines and had to "pop" up over them to avoid hitting them. Nearly stalled, I went on to an amazing "powder puff" landing among some sage brush on the top of the plateau. Had I been in a collapsible canopy, I would have been dead.

Connecting up with Rick's main theme, I would never have expected the turbulence I encountered that day. Regardless of whether I had been a Die-Wingual pilot on a collapsible canopy - or just a (only) collapsible canopy flier, I would have been close to certainly leaving the mortal plane that day. As it is, I'm still here to tell the story. It's sad to think how many collapsible canopy occupants can no longer tell ANY stories.*

*PS - Kind of odd how those collapsible canopy pilots who would be most likely to speak out against the fallibility of collapsible canopies are no longer able to sound any alert. Could this be called self editing - toward a negative end result?

PPS - For a little perspective, take a look at this YouTube video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jehWRtILkwc . It shows the power lines I mention above - on final approach. Plus, it looks like this pilot also experiences some of the same (but milder) bumps I encountered on coming in to land.
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Re: Hang gliders don't do this

Postby Rick Masters » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:34 pm

Kind of odd how those collapsible canopy pilots who would be most likely to speak out against the fallibility of collapsible canopies are no longer able to sound any alert.

Imaging all the world's forums with 1400 now-dead posters saying, "Paragliding can kill you. Get out now!"
But they're not there, are they?
Just the boosters saying how wonderful it is and come try.
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Re: Hang gliders don't do this

Postby wingspan33 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:16 pm

What of the thousands that have been injured seriously enough to want to leave collapsible canopies behind? Where is their voice? Perhaps they are so ashamed of themselves that they self censor any negative remarks they might have. After all "GOOD" pilots aren't supposed to get hurt during flight activities.

Additional Comment: With the long term (relatively high) rate of collapsible canopy occupants receiving U$hPa ratings, there should be 10X more of them than hang glider pilot members. But as I understand it, collapsible canopy occupants make up only a bit more than half of the U$hPa's membership. Seems to me that including the US, but also beyond to include the whole world, there must truly be a LARGE (very) silent majority of living x-collapsible canopy occupants who aren't saying a thing about the dangers of soaring parachutes.

Maybe all they need is a good support group web site? :idea:
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Re: Hang gliders don't do this

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:56 pm

Maybe all they need is a good support group web site?

My experience suggests they need deprogramming first.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-deprogram.html

And a lot of this, too.
http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/

And maybe some of this.
http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

Probably followed by this.
http://www.ptsdunited.org/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_term=whats%20post%20traumatic%20stress%20disorder
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Re: Hang gliders don't do this

Postby wingspan33 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:29 pm

RickMasters wrote:
Maybe all they need is a good support group web site?

My experience suggests they need deprogramming first.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-deprogram.html

And a lot of this, too.
http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/

And maybe some of this.
http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

Probably followed by this.
http://www.ptsdunited.org/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_term=whats%20post%20traumatic%20stress%20disorder


:srofl: . . . :thumbup:

:think: . . . Kind of sad actually. Why does the X-PG community care so little about the active PG community?
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Re: Hang gliders don't do this

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:21 pm

I'm dead serious. There's a big problem here.
Why does the X-PG community care so little about the active PG community?

Good topic.
How about it, ex-PG Hawks?
How tough was it to leave PG?

PS: We are here for you.     :P
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