Ernie Camacho
Comments from others
Feb 26 11 8:42 AM
This discussion is also taking place on the Cloud Base Country Club email list. Here's a worthy entry by Mark Forbes, HG, PG, and USHPA BOD member:
Re: PG fatality data
Posted by: "Mark G. Forbes"
Date: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:37 pm ((PST))
> Unfortunately I think we will have to let history sort this out. So
> let's work on the positive common that we have between us and bite our
> public tongues on the risk profiles. In private, of course, with people
> we care about, we should raise our concerns then back off and let the
> individual do their own research and reach their own conclusion.
>
> I know that I would be very, very irritated if people continuously told
> me that my aircraft was unsafe after I had "evaluated" the evidence for
> myself, regardless of the truth. I really don't know what else to do
> that will be effective. And I don't have the time to prove anything to
> anyone (especially if it is unprovable).
> - Scott Silver
The data so far doesn't show that one form of flight is significantly more
dangerous than another in our sport. The injuries are different, as are
the failure modes, but the risk of getting dead ends up about even. The
"data" that Rick Masters posts doesn't account for the fact that over
most of the world, PG flights vastly outnumber HG activity. Here in the
US, where we have approximate parity between participants, the annual
fatal accidents are about even.
Part of encouraging safety in flight is to use the right equipment for
the job. A significant number of accidents happen, IMHO, because the
pilot is trying to apply the wrong tool. In mid-day thermals and strong
wind, you should be flying a hang glider. In milder conditions, a PG
may be more appropriate. We need to encourage pilots to cross-train
and broaden their capabilities, not sneer at their "unsafe" wings.
If we're going to persuade our bag-wing brethren to embrace the true faith
of aluminum and Dacron, we need to lay off the pointless trolling and
stop acting like a bunch of a-holes. Over and over, I've heard comments
from PG pilots who are interested in HG as a crossover possibility, but
put off by the attitude and posturing of some in the HG community. Such
as Rick Masters and Rodger Hoyt.
Sneering and derision doesn't win friends. It just alienates and divides,
at a time when we all need to work together. Hang gliding participation
is down, though starting to recover a bit. Paragliding is about flat. We
*all* need to be pulling in the same direction, and this sort of divisive
crap is the LAST thing we need. If ever there was an example of how to
contribute to the decline of hang gliding, this would be it.
Knock it off! What gets written on these mailing lists circulates to a
broader audience than you might think. Jim Tibbs' off-the-cuff comments
from a few weeks ago inspired several annoyed emails to me from pilots
who pointed to them as a divisive example. If you're going to sneer,
do it in private, among yourselves. You can feel smugly superior to those
"other guys" if you wish, but do at least TRY to put on a show of
solidarity in public.
Or you can keep on doing what you've been doing so far, and watch the
sport of hang gliding spiral in. It's about hearts and minds, people. If
you act like a bunch of arrogant, sneering elitists, you'll attract a
few like-minded souls. The rest of the crowd is going to hang out with
the cool kids, flying paragliders.
Enough of my ranting. I'm fed up with dealing with the fallout from theselittle email
tantrums. Let's try to get along, work together, and lose the negativity and
attitude. Play nice, or go home!
MGF
(and thanks to those of you (the majority) who don't share "the attitude"!)
Ernie Camacho
And some more from CBCC #13 [-]
Feb 26 11 8:55 AM
Re: Flying
Posted by: "James T"
Date: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:34 pm ((PST))
If these stats
are accurate, then I would agree that it is not an acceptable number of
fatalities for any sport. It reminds me of the stats I've read about hang
gliding in the early days, and we're still suffering from the resulting
stigma.
A pg instructor from our local club pointed out that the vast
majority of incidents that occurred locally were from the more experienced
pilots and not the beginners. Given the fact that there are so few local hg
pilots (for now), the data was not available to apply to hg as well, although I
suspect the numbers might be roughly equivalent. I suggested to the group that
perhaps the answer might be some sort of 'continuing education' administered
by certified instructors and required of every pilot regardless of experience
level and aircraft type. I've never been one to believe in legislated
performance standards and I admit that it might be a bit extreme, but I was
hoping that the suggestion might at least encourage a constructive dialogue as
to how the number of incidents could be minimized. By the lack of response, I
gather that the idea was not well received.
Again, assuming that these
stats are at least partially accurate, it becomes apparent that something must
be done to change this trend. Perhaps encouragement of the mentoring program is
one answer - experienced pilots advising (and perhaps even pressuring) less
qualified pilots to heed conditions for their particular wing type. Of course
this assumes that the experienced pilots know their own limitations as well as
those of others.
========================================
Re: fatality rate
Posted by: "Mark G. Forbes"
Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:40 am ((PST))
> If these stats are accurate, then I would agree that it is not an acceptable number of
> fatalities for any sport. It reminds me of the stats I've read about hang gliding in the
> early days, and we're still suffering from the resulting stigma.
One thing to keep in mind is that Rick collects reports from all over the world,
and it's over a long period of time. That makes for big, scary numbers, but you need
to understand the context to evaluate the risk. And he's got a definite point of view,
so he's out looking for data to confirm his own fundamental bias.
Europe has something on the order of 50,000 paraglider pilots, from the best data I've
been able to find. We have about 4,500 here in the US. The risk of death in either
hang gliding or paragliding is about 1 in 1000 per year, based on the historic averages
here. So just in Europe alone, assuming comparable fatality rates you'd expect to see
something like 50 fatalities per year, and that doesn't count the rest of the world.
Training and equipment quality varies too; USHPA has a pretty solid program that is
emulated other places in the world, but there are places where the training is
minimal. Also, PG lends itself much better to remote hike-in sites (Nepal, India, etc.)
where the risks are significantly higher. Some of the reported accidents are pilots
who were engaged in aerobatics, a known high-risk activity, and I think there are a
lot more aerobatic PG pilots than there are aerobatic HG pilots. That may skew the
data somewhat.
Finally, because of the dramatically larger number of PG pilots flying strong conditions,
it's quite likely that some of them are "in over their heads", in wind and thermals
that are beyond their safe operating limits. The wider speed range and turbulence
handling of a HG gives it a broader safe operating area. Not infinite of course, but
bigger. It's incumbent on the pilot to recognize those operating limits and stay
within them. That's why I stuff battens when it gets bumpy!
If we had 50,000+ hang glider pilots flying worldwide, I'd expect to see comparable
fatality rates. We don't have anywhere near that many. My best estimate is that it's
roughly 1/5 of that, with half of them here in the US.
In the early days of our sport, we had maybe 1000 or so pilots flying, and the death
rate was in the dozens-per-month. It was *vastly* more dangerous back then. The rate
quickly dropped as we developed testing and training, but the early stigma took a
long time to lose. It's not all gone yet, but we're becoming more accepted as just
another sport. I'm hoping for a good burst of positive press from the movie "Rio"
which opens in April. We're putting significant marketing effort into this, with
some movie tie-in promos running in selected markets during April and May. More on
that when I get back from the BOD meeting next week.
MGF
=====================================
Re: fatality rate
Posted by: "Dan Utinske"
Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:43 am ((PST))
Mark,
I must disagree with you on a couple points; while I agree this is a world
wide collection of deaths, it is over a period of 9 recent years (2002
2011), not an extended period of time. During this recent 9 year period it
can safely be assumed that manufacturing has taken leaps forward in design
and safety. I don't know Rick but his basic point of view is a paraglider
by nature and design is not made for those booming thermal days, it has an
inherit tendency to collapse that so far can¹t be designed out of the wing.
His argument is that a PG pilot has a very limited window of opportunity to
deploy his/her emergency chute due to the rapid acceleration not normally
found in a broken hang glider, though HG have their own problems with
deployments and spinning wreckage.
Consideration must be given to the reports that a significant number of
pilots who are in over their head in strong conditions were in fact very
experienced pilots and instructors. Unlike HG where the reported injury and
death breaks out with students suffering something close to 48% , in
paragliding the pendulum swings to the more experience pilot with the higher
injury & death rate. The common denominator in PG is the wing itself. If
you recall in the early days there were many glider manufactures in the US
and as each produced a glider that suffered structural failure it tended to
go out of business; not the same in the PG community and it seems to be
accepted as the norm.
I don¹t know how HG and PG death rates compare but I doubt your assumption
of 1 in 1,000 across the board regardless of how many fly each type. PG by
it¹s nature a higher inherent risk simply because the wing can collapse
unexpectedly. These are not my own assumptions, they are documented fact.
A PG pilot knows these risks and accepts them as part of his/her desire to fly.
I started this odyssey in hang gliding in 1977, and I¹m a recreational pilot
who looks at risk and measures it against the pleasure I receive from
flying. I¹m also a Novice PG pilot having learned at Torrey Pines and I
love flying the bag at Torrey but you¹ll never find me at a place like
Dunlap or even Ellsinore in a PG between the hours of 10AM 3PM. I will
settle for boring soaring at costal sites, too damn old to want to go cross
country anyway and if I do I will be stuffing battens.
If there is an argument between the HG and PG community it lies in the
representation of our activities as a combined sport. Few people who are
not directly exposed to HG and PG can really tell you the difference. Many
think paragliding is being pulled behind a boat. Fortunately but both hang
gliding and paragliding are getting a lot of exposure due to wonderful new
video cameras like the GoPro and from the up-coming movie Rio so I suspect
as the economy improves interest will pick up more then every before. It is
much bigger in Europe because most of the flying sites are where they are
easily seen, unlike here in the US where a significant number are far
removed from population centers.
Nothing makes one feel worse then seeing someone seriously injured or killed
while participating in something we love. Everyone should read Rick¹s
report and derive from it what they will, he¹s obviously put a lot of effort
in it. In particular video I became aware of something that I¹d been doing
shortly after PG take off, I let loose of the risers using both hands to
help slide my butt back into the harness. There is a video of a guy who
typically clowned around by hanging upside down at launch, no risers and he
did it one to many times with the consequences being extremely violent and
fatal. You can bet the risers will be glued into my hands from now on so I
gained new insight from what I read and seen.
Safety First, you can fly safely thousands of times but fatally only once!
Dan
======================================
Re: PG fatality data
Posted by: "High Flyer"
Date: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:43 pm ((PST))
Mark, as usual your myopic view misses the point. The difference is that in one form of aviation, Paragliding, The
"accidents" are actually caused by the instability of the Paraglider.
When you allude to the wrong tool for the job, you are actually validating this fact.
As for these words circulating to a "broader audience", I note that
you CC'ed no less than 4 separate lists. I didn't see this discussion bounced to so many lists prior to your reply.
(Perhaps I missed it?)
As to the "tantrums and sneering", you obviously have a view that I haven't seen
demonstrated in this discussion. I read an honest discussion about a published
work that seems to be spot on!
Further, I doubt seriously this discussion will be " an example of how to
contribute to the decline of hang gliding".
A more onerous example would be trying to incorporate engines into the hang
gliding mainstream as some, who shall remain nameless, have attempted to do
in the past.
No Mark, this is an honest discussion and it belongs on the
list and out in public. Please try to understand that silencing important
information and opinions only contribute to the decline of all of the free-flight
regimes.
regards
~Marc
Ernie Camacho Feb 26 11 11:18 AM. Edited 1 times.
And this from the HG list #14 [-]
Feb 28 11 7:56 AM
Rick Masters reply
Posted by: "Rodger Hoyt"
Date: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:06 am ((PST))
I received the following response from Rick Masters regarding his research into
PG fatalities. I felt honored by his reply, since Rick was once a noted HG
magazine author, book and film publisher.
Tibbs: please note his advice to "secure a private (ie HG's only) launch site...
Rodger
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Rick Masters
To: Rodger Hoyt
Sent: Sat, February 26, 2011 3:51:09 PM
Subject: Re: PG denial
Thanks, Rodger,
I posted extensively on this subject on the OZ Report in 2009-10.
Face it, you guys lost. Paragliding took over the USHGA. I doubt your
opinion will be treated fairly on the OZ Report anyway, despite the fact
that it is the most important issue in HG. The level of political
correctness is so high among the gutless HG pilots and HG forum moderators
in the U.S. that, in my opinion, you have no real voice and going outlaw may
be preferable to banging one's head against the existing wall. Once a group
of outlaws is formed, they should secure a private launch site. This would
be the seed of a new national organization for hang gliding.
Good luck,
Rick Masters
Quoting Rodger Hoyt
> Rick,
>
> Thanks for your website enumerating paragliding fatalities. I kept a list of
> local accidents for awhile and, as you say, pilot experience was irrelevant. It
> was simply a matter of time before virtually every local pilot had a crash
> resulting from either blowback or collapse - the inherent unairworthiness of
>the craft. I spoke to experienced PG pilots who had quit, citing that "PG pilots
>are in denial" and "collapses are inevitable."
>
> I will contribute to your continued research. Meantime, here is a letter I
>wrote to the OZ Report which alludes to the naivete with which most students enter
> paragliding.
>
> Rodger Hoyt
>
>
> Paragliding and hang gliding; The inevitable conflict.
> Rodger Hoyt writes:
>
> Many conclusions can potentially be deduced from Mark Forbes Oz Report graph
> charting the comparative growth rates of Paragliding and Hang Gliding
> memberships in the USHGA. It seems more than coincidental however, that the
> decline in hang gliding membership so closely synchronizes with the increase
>in paragliding membership.
>
> I would postulate that many persons interested in unpowered personal flight
>who would otherwise have taken up hang gliding have instead pursued paragliding.
>In a prospective flier's naiveté, the inherent lack of airworthiness of a
> paragliders (collaspes, blowbacks etc) would be unknown. Assuming the two
> flying disciplines to be equal, a potential student would choose the easier to
> learn. Hence the otherwise inexplicable growth of a clearly inferior and more
> dangerous form of flying.
>
> To illustrate: I recently anonymously telephoned a supposedly biwingual
> instructor in a major west coast city, posing as a prospective student. After
>a > brief interview in which I truthfully answered his questions, he concluded
>that I, a 30-year hang gliding pilot, was a perfect candidate for - you guessed it
>- paragliding! Who knows what his motivations were - perhaps the expense of
> replacing downtubes? Regardless, it is obvious that he is steering students
> toward paragliding and, by default, away from hang gliding.
>
> Whatever the causes, paragliding clearly is siphoning away prospective
>students whom otherwise would very likely have chosen hang gliding instead. What does
> this mean for current HG pilots? Fewer glider sales, less funds available for
>R & D, fewer manufacturers from which to choose, a possible stagnation in hang
> glider development. What do you suppose the chances will be of obtaining a
> state-of-the-art hang glider will be when there are 1000 of us left? How about 500?
>
> Historically, whenever it has been combined with other pursuits, hang gliding
> has been eclipsed. Remember when Whole Air magazine was sold and combined with
> Ultralights in "Sport Flier?" It wasn't long before hang gliding content
> disappeared completely from its pages. Fortunately the USHGA made the right
> decision in regard to UL's; unfortunately they blew it with paragliders.
>
> Think about it: is there anywhere one can go anymore to read exclusively about
> hang gliding without being inundated with tripe about "big ears," "kiting" or
> "asymmetrical collapses?" We may as well be reading about model railroading
>for all the relevance it has to our flying (in fact, model railroading would be
> preferable; at least I like trains
>
> My conclusion from this is that the single largest threat to hang gliding as
>we know it comes in the form of a Trojan horse we allowed in the USHGA and which
> is now in the process of taking over: paragliding. This being the case, would
> it not behoove those who love hang gliding and want to assure its perpetual
> existence to begin actively opposing this interloper? This could include
> opposition to the proposed USHGA name change and, if it is accepted, possible
> campaign to encourage the formation of a new hang gliding-only organization to
> assure our interests are paramount.
>
> Dissatisfaction with the predominant governing body has led to successful
> formation of competing organizations in other sports. One which immediately
> comes to mind is the American Hot Rod Association, created in response to
> disenchantment with the National Hot Rod Association some decades ago.
>
> If you love hang gliding like I do, and have witnessed paragliders grow to
> outnumber hang gliders three-to-one in your area as I have in mine, I urge you
> to consider the threat of paragliding with the gravest concern.
>
>
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