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Re: Nate's minor accident at PackSaddle

Postby ZackC » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:29 am

The Danny Jones incident was reported on the AFFA boards the day of the incident (4/17/11) by a witness. As far as I know the pilot has not written anything about it (I don't even know if he remembers it). The AFFA incident forum is hidden for non-members, so not many people saw the report. Here it is:

Conditions: SSE-SSW, 20-30. The one minute ave. just prior to hang check was 25. Air was fairly smooth based on behaviors of vultures and ramp conditions. There were not large "flaws" in the direction. It was gusty however. Lulls were down to ~15, lasting for 10s of seconds. These air speeds were measured with an instrument. Trees and bushes at base were reliable predictors of coming strength.

Complete hang and equipment check prior to getting on the ramp. On ramp ~5-7 mins. waiting for lull. Dan picked up the glider on a first attempt and prior to calling "clear" asked for help. Pulled glider down and reset. 2-3 minutes later in a reasonable lull, Dan clears, takes one step and lets nose up too much. Pilot "hops" into glider. Glider climbs rapidly over ramp and slightly right (west) of the ramp, then wind gets under left wing and banks glider to the right. Dan pulls in to recover some of the nose high condition, but does not (cannot?) recover bank. Glider is in a 30 deg. banking right hand turn, nose approx. level with horizon to slightly down pitch and impacts ridge 100 feet to the west and 30 feet down hill. Time from launch to impact, < 4 seconds.

Glider comes to rest slightly suspending pilot. Pilot is face down, parallel to hill, head slightly above feet. After recovery of pilot and transfer to EMS, glider was briefly inspected and retrieved. In short, it is a pile of bent Al and ripped sailcloth. It will not fly again.

Right downtube bent 90 deg. about halfway down. Left downtube intact. Basetube intact. Right wheel assembly on basetube heavily bent. Keel ripped apart approx. 1 foot infront (towards nose) of haulback bolt. Majority of battens bent out of normal. Nose plate severely bent -- could not release nose wires. I did not inspect leading edges or crossbar. Pilot helmet has a 6 inch long gash from above the right eye to behind the ear. Mouth guard busted through also along this line.


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Re: Nate's minor accident at PackSaddle

Postby TadEareckson » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:27 am

I'm sorry Tad, but Rob McKenzie is one of the top instructors that I've met.

Exactly. That's precisely why I will not recommend that my nephew - or anybody's nephew, or niece - go into hang gliding.

Rob is pointing out an important aspect of the problem when he mentions that routine leads to boredom.

1. Rob, who apparently has never once done or made the tiniest effort to comply with or implement this, I will say, most important and critical of anything in USHGA's SOPs regulating pilot proficiency, procedures, conduct is speculating that this "problem" exists without ONE MOLECULE'S worth of data, supporting evidence, or vague indication.

2. Aviation is a REALLY crappy pursuit for people who have issues with routine and boredom.

Hang Gliding - 2005/12

Master's Tips

Pre-Flight, Distractions, and Hooking In
Rob Kells

Two of the most dangerous, yet easily preventable, mistakes in hang gliding are taking off with an improperly assembled aircraft and launching without hooking in.

Accidents of this type usually involve a distraction of some kind to the pilot's normal pre-flight routine. Be it a camera mounted on the glider, a film crew, radio, new instrument, changing weather conditions, or a contest, the pilot is usually distracted by something different that catches his attention and contributes to her or him making a serious mistake.

A Comprehensive Pre-Flight Check

Most test flights we do at the factory are on production or prototype gliders that have never been flown before. It's essential that a complete and thorough preflight be conducted to ensure the glider is properly assembled. I pre-flight a hang glider the same way I was taught to pre-flight an airplane: Start at the nose, check the center section, and then work around the glider in a consistent manner. My preflight covers every assembly, cable, tube, nut, bolt, pin, safety ring, strap, zipper, Mylar insert, sprog, washout strut, nose cone and stitch on the glider. I personally believe that it is very important to actually touch each item as I check it. If interrupted by someone or something during the pre-flight, I go back to the beginning and start again.

How can you possibly IMAGINE anything more routine, rote, tedious, boring, reactive, totally devoid of true thinking than that?

Especially after you've just finished stuffing thirty-some battens.

Especially after you've done this six billion times before for five billion different gliders four out of five days of your life for the past thirty years with little to no evidence that running through this drill is making any difference.

But Kells has never needed to be scraped off the side of the bluff and have his ticker rebooted the way an energetic free thinker like Bille Floyd has.

Ridge soaring is mind numbingly boring after about Hang 2.5. This is why people are willing to risk and often succeed in killing themselves doing aerobatics.

Thermalling is boring. You hafta force yourself - sometimes for hours - to think of NOTHING beyond visualizing the edges and lift profile of your little column and adjusting your bank angle to maximize your climb. Think about anything else for more than a second or two and you stand a good chance of getting dumped off the side. I've got a theory that really stupid people tend to make really excellent XC competitors because they're pushing their brains to the red lines at this level and have neither the reserve processing power nor inclination to become distracted thinking about how and why Robin was killed on launch yesterday.

I used this routine, non negotiable, unvarying, boring launch sequence procedure for decades but, nevertheless, was NEVER once bored but rather ALWAYS scared. So, for this practitioner, McKenzie's take is pure unadulterated bulls***.

Hooked In, Or Not?

Following a recent fatal accident caused by the pilot launching unhooked, there has been a discussion on how to guarantee that you are hooked in. The two main methods are:

1. Always do a hang check before launch, and/or

2. Always hook your harness into the glider before you get into the harness.

Interestingly, NEITHER of these methods GUARANTEES that you will not launch unhooked some day. Let's add a third one:

3. Always lift the glider vertically and feel the tug on the leg straps when the harness mains go tight, just before you start your launch run. I always use this test.

A hang check seems to be a very reasonable way to ensure that you are hooked in, your lines are straight, and that you are the proper distance from the base bar. However, it does not ensure that you are in your leg loops. I know most pilots include the leg loops as part of their hang check, but remember the point about distractions. Several pilots have launched unhooked after doing a hang check because they were distracted and unhooked from the glider, and then, remembering having done a hang check earlier, they ran off the hill unhooked. If you unhook for any reason after your hang check, and a hang check is your way to be sure you are hooked in, you must always do another hang check! In some conditions, though, it's difficult to do a hang check, e.g. if you are the last pilot to launch.

"Knowing" that if you are in your harness you must be hooked in, means that if something comes up that causes you to unhook for any reason, you are actually in greater danger of thinking you are hooked in when you are not. This happened to a pilot who used the Oz Method for several years and then went to the training hill for some practice flights. He unhooked from the glider to carry it up the hill. At the top, sitting under the glider with his harness on, he picked up the glider and launched unhooked. Fortunately he was not hurt... but I bet he was very surprised.

My partners (Steve Pearson and Mike Meier) and I have over 25,000 hang glider flights between us and have managed (so far) to have hooked in every time. I also spoke with test pilots Ken Howells and Peter Swanson about their methods (another 5000 flights). Not one of us regularly uses either of the two most popular methods outlined above. Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

High Adventure's Rob McKenzie (18,000 flights) has yet another method. He is the only Wills Wing test pilot who does` hang check on every flight. Rob makes a tripod between the base tube and his feet by slowly lying down to put pressure on his harness mains while pushing forward with his feet. Using this method Rob is able to do an unassisted hang check. One day while test flying production gliders at Marshall, he did his hang check and found himself lying in the dirt. He thought he was hooked in and was not, so it may have saved his life. He also told me that any time he unhooks for any reason, he says out loud, "I am unhooked, I have to do another hang check."

The Best Insurance Is To Believe It Can Happen To You!

I believe that there is no "one method" that is best for all pilots or situations. If fact, we use different methods at different times.

I know of five very experienced pilots who have launched without being hooked in. It is possible to climb into the control frame and fly the glider standing inside the bar after launching unhooked (two of the five managed to do so), but most pilots will not be able to do so for several reasons. It requires a lot of strength to get up into the bar, and most current gliders will be trimmed very fast if you are hanging from the base tube after launching unhooked. One pilot was able to deploy his parachute while hanging from the base tube after launching unhooked from a 1000-foot cliff. Miraculously he was not injured.

The right answer is to always be sure you are hooked in before you start your launch run. If you are on a sloped launch and feel your glider taking off without you, the sooner you let go the better. If it's a cliff launch, trying to climb into the control bar (if you are athletic) is probably your best bet. Once inside the bar, with the glider stabilized, you can wrap one arm around the control bar apex and hook in.

Last Thought Before You Start Your Launch Run: Hooked In? Not Sure? CHECK?

This is the technique Steve Pearson uses if he is not absolutely sure he is hooked in on launch. He sets the glider down and while holding the nose wires, turns and looks at his mains and carabiner and physically grabs the carabiner and gives it a tug. While it does not ensure that you are in your leg loops, it is an easy way to CONFIRM that you are hooked into the glider prior to launch.

Mission's Pat Denevan teaches a hook-in check, which is the "lift the glider to feel the leg loops go tight" method I outlined above. He adds that he teaches his students to repeat it if they do not launch within fifteen seconds. Pat points out, correctly, that it's more important to know that you are attached to your glider and in your leg loops than if your harness lines are twisted in some way.

All Lines In Order?

I always do a hang check when I get in a new harness or after I've worked on one. I do not usually do a hang check on later flights unless I'm aerotowing and have to lie down in the cart. I always hang my carabiner in a loop on the front of my harness right after I unhook from the glider. This assures that the lines remain untwisted next time I hook in.

I think that if all pilots started doing a hook-in check IMMEDIATELY PRIOR to their launch run, we'd have fewer cases of the very sad mistake of launching unhooked.

Please fly safely.

A reading of Kell's article ALSO gives a strong impression that McKenzie's take is pure unadulterated bulls***.

I have NEVER ONCE heard a practitioner say anything to indicate that McKenzie's take wasn't pure unadulterated bulls***.

If you can find any statement from a practitioner or other evidence that McKenzie's take isn't pure unadulterated bulls*** then post it.

The setup area is a mediocre place for variety and true thinking.

The preflight procedure is a fairly crappy time for variety and true thinking.

The launch ramp is an ABSOLUTELY DEADLY place for variety and free thinking and a REALLY EXCELLENT place for extremely standardized routine procedures and FEAR.

Show me ANYTHING else in hang gliding or established aviation - paragliding, Cessna, sailplane, chopper, passenger jet, fighter, blimp, balloon - in which the pilot is advised to vary his preflight, takeoff, communication, emergency training, stall and spin recovery, landing procedures for the sake of variety and true thinking stimulation.

Does McKenzie ALSO advise not checking roll, pitch, ribbons, air traffic every few launches just keep things stimulating?

Maybe keep your nose up, take two steps, and jump on the bar once in a while?

If variety is so fuckin' important shouldn't he have people doing a hook-in check once every twenty or thirty flights?

That's part of the human element that you want to ignore by reasserting the regulation.

He's openly and flagrantly violating the regulation. Let's assume that he's ONE HUNDRED PERCENT RIGHT. Has he written USHGA, published a magazine article, posted to a forum calling for the abolition or modification of the deadly verify-that-you're-hooked-in-just-prior-to-to-launch requirement?

If the regulation were so bulletproof, then why doesn't it work 100% of the time?

1. In the thirty years since the implementation of the regulation I know of not ONE SINGLE PERSON who's made any effort to adhere to it who's been so much as scratched as a consequence of launching unhooked. That's plenty close enough to a hundred percent to keep me happy. If you've got contradictory data then present it.

2. I'd guesstimate that efforts to comply with it fall well short of ONE percent.

The answer is the human element.

The PROBLEM is the human element. And that's PRECISELY what this regulation is designed to address.

Helen McKerral - 2010/01/27
South Australia

Hiya Tad,

I've been doing the lift and tug for some months now, after our discussion. It's good and it works.

And it's good and IT WORKS. But only if you make more of an effort to DO IT than you do to tell everyone why it can't possibly be of any value whatsoever and will, in fact, send the fatality rate through the ceiling.

But my main point here is that Rob McKenzie is one of the best instructors in the country.

And Matt Taber's new GT Release is the best commercially available two point aerotow release in the country. And it also sucks.

It's entirely possible that I would GLOW with admiration at everything else Rob says and does - but that ain't anywhere NEAR good enough.

We need more instructors like Rob McKenzie.

We got all the instructors we need telling people that if they check to make sure they're hooked in at the back of the ramp they can safely assume they'll be hooked in when they run off the front of the ramp.

If he flunks in your world, then that shows a big problem with your world.

George Bernard Shaw

Man and Superman - 1903
Maxims For Revolutionists

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

Fear is at the core of what powers the hook-in check mindset, it can probably work to get some of the instructors to take the most important part of their jobs seriously.

1. Rob's got approximately 2.7 zillion students out there whom he elected to sign off in violation of the regulations.

2. There's a reasonable chance that one of them will run off the ramp without his glider sometime in the coming years.

3. There's an excellent chance that that event will be captured and run on The Jack Show version of America's Funniest Home Videos.

4. If/when this happens I'm gonna be contacting the next of kin - and the attorneys - and making sure they fully understand WHY it happened.

5. I might be more favorably disposed towards Rob if he were to go out on the magazine and wire and make a significant effort to reverse some of the damage.

6. But that ain't never gonna happen, is it?
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Re: Nate's minor accident at PackSaddle

Postby TadEareckson » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:14 pm

Instructors don't like their names printered in public when they give out a ratings H 3 or 4 to student hang glider pilot's that their flying demeanor has not changed and that are still flying a H 1 level...

Before reading what Zack posted earlier today I wasn't inclined to dump on the "instructor" much on this one.

If I was and instructor and giving out H2 & H3's to students, they better show me that they can Fly through a Tornado, and land safely in a Rotor to get a hang 2 or 3 from me.

I'm in agreement with the attitude behind what you're saying but... No.

There's no such thing as a safe landing in a rotor of any magnitude. I don't care how experienced and/or skilled you are, if you're landing in a rotor you're in luck mode. Nobody should ever hafta do anything dangerous - like a standup and/or spot landing - to get ANY rating.

He MUST, however, know how best to handle a rotor, should he find himself in one, and demonstrate the necessary skills.

And I also don't have a problem with with an instructor holding off on the signature a bit until some of the skills are solidly beyond what the USHGA rating actually calls for.

And I don't think 99 percent on a written exam should be a passable score. Same way I don't think it's a good idea to fly a plane that's missing one bolt out of a hundred in critical applications.

A good H-1 should have these Skills...

What's on that list to keep someone from leaving the site on a stretcher for the reason Martin did on 2010/01/17? Maybe we shouldn't be is such a rush to throw out some of USHGA's existing requirements.

Should know what he is getting into...

Yeah, I think he should hafta read a hundred page collection of fatality reports.

...and know the instructor credibility and ablility

How can a prospective pilot possibly be expected to determine that? The instructor is either certified or isn't.

Set up a glider, on flat ground & up-right as well...

I'm not sure I ever set up a glider flat since the early Eighties and I'm not entirely sure that it's a good idea to set some models up that way.

And a Hang One probably shouldn't be flying in situations in which it might be advisable to set up flat.

Weather and Forcast

For a Hang One? Why?

How to Throw your parachute while being spinned around...

We've got better things we should be working on at that level. Parachutes get way too much emphasis in hang gliding. And the more you're spinning the less likely a parachute is to do you any good.

How to hang check

What would happen if we totally eliminated that procedure and term from the curriculum? (The way I'd like to.)

Ground handle a glider in the wind not over 12 mph...

Why limit it to twelve?

Deminstrate Moon Walks

Good.

How to tie a weaklink, and sizes...

I'm a HUGE fan of knots and wouldn't mind seeing a few made mandatory, but...

adi - 2009/07/02

I have to chirp in on this.. I know I'm a noob and all that, but Tad seems to be talking sense to me. From what I can gather the US has some quite different (dated?) ways of doing things which it appears are not used here in the UK, and some of the reasons I've heard cited for not using these methods relate directly to accidents in the US.

For instance, the idea of tying your own weak link is absolute nuts to me, as is using a bit of string for the job! Over here it's aluminium only (sailplane style link) and if I turned up with a bit of tied string, I'd be shown the exit road.

1. Is there some good reason we need to be using weak links that need to be tied?

2. Is there some good reason we need to be using weak links - period? (Well, to be correct - question mark.)

3. Seeing as how there are only about a half dozen people in hang gliding on the planet who know what a weak link is, shouldn't we be working on getting the definition across instead of learning how to tie them?

4. How many people do you know who can calculate the G rating of a weak link for a glider?

5. How many people do you know who know what an appropriate G rating is?

6. Should a person be required to tow or know anything about it for any rating level?

How towing systems work

That would pretty much knock everybody off the list save for the same half dozen people.

The danger of towing and what can go wrong with these systems and know what to do

Let's first make sure we ourselves know and are equipped to do it.

have at least 30 scooter tows being able to go 25% to the right and to the left and landing

1. However did we manage in the early Eighties when - for all intents and purposes - there wasn't any towing?

2. Also... Not a huge fan of people turning away from the other end of the line on tow.

have at least 100 launches from a small trainning hill wheel or feet landings

I think we should be strongly discouraging stunt flying until...

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...people really understand what they're up against.

having at least 20 surface launches for a payout whinch straight flights and landings with flight under 200 ft

Right. Keep 'em in the kill zone as much as possible.

I strongly advise keeping towing under five and over two hundred as much as possible. Think Lemme Lopez.

And furthermore...

You don't wanna be putting people up very high without good turning skills because they need to be able to execute planned ones to ensure that they can recover from induced ones.

These should be the skills of a good H 1 rating

A lot of that stuff represents the skills appropriate for a good Hang Three rating. I don't think it's a good idea to leave people with a blank card for the couple of years it could take to rack up that much experience.

But it's a good to kick ideas around and thanks for posting - I was planning on doing something like this myself in this discussion.
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Re: Nate's minor accident at PackSaddle

Postby TadEareckson » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:28 pm

The Danny Jones incident was reported on the AFFA boards the day of the incident (4/17/11) by a witness.

Currently with a new identity and home in a faraway state in a government protection program?

Trees and bushes at base were reliable predictors of coming strength.

Davis - 2000/01/12

I'm wishing that one of the calm spots would happen again. I'm not all that happy about holding my glider in one direction and running in the other, but still it looks like a go. My driver is about ready to get in the car and drive to the end of the rope, leaving me to handle the glider by myself.

Mike Nooy takes off to our left, and he launches right into a dust devil. Like I said, they've been coming in every ten minutes or so, and you can't see them as the paddock is pretty green.

Complete hang and equipment check prior to getting on the ramp. On ramp ~5-7 mins. waiting for lull. Dan picked up the glider on a first attempt and prior to calling "clear" asked for help. Pulled glider down and reset. 2-3 minutes later in a reasonable lull, Dan clears, takes one step...

We then unfastened the glider and moved out to the beginning of the ramp where we did a hang check and made sure he had plenty of clearance over the bar and his chute was not interfering with his forward movement. ... After five minutes or so he yelled, "Clear!"

Ya gotta admire the consistency. (Seven to ten minutes? Yeah, that's pretty close to just prior.)

...and lets nose up too much. Pilot "hops" into glider. Glider climbs rapidly over ramp and slightly right (west) of the ramp, then wind gets under left wing and banks glider to the right. Dan pulls in to recover some of the nose high condition, but does not (cannot?) recover bank.

OK, *NOW* I understand the instructors desire for anonymity. This one sounds quite a bit like John Seward's. Makes ya wonder a little it it's the same instructor. Anybody had a chance to look that up yet?

...inexperienced wire man...

If so, completely irrelevant.

Had a wireman been the predominant factor I'd have been inclined to exonerate the instructor.
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Re: Nate's minor accident at PackSaddle

Postby DarthVader » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:45 am

Conditions: SSE-SSW, 20-30. The one minute ave. just prior to hang check was 25. Air was fairly smooth based on behaviors of vultures and ramp conditions. :crazy:

Well, that doesn't sound right, if that was the case the nose man would had lauched his glider too, he did have his glider set up as well, but he got smart and reconized danger gusting 35mph and told Danny that he was putting his glider up. I ve seen pilots lauch at 20-30 no problem, and Danny was getting good at flying hang gliders, and has launched those conditions before with no problem in smooth wind, if that was the case he would had made it no problem, But this situation was different it was strong and gusty, themals passing, that's why he had to put his glider down so many times, cause he was getinng blown around all over the place, I am sure that fear was crossing his mind, at that time he was looking down from the top of PacKSaddle, but the temptation of getting high and missing all those good gusty thermals, that's almost like passing up on a T-Bone stake and a Beer.
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Re: Nate's minor accident at PackSaddle

Postby Pilgrim » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:01 pm

20-30 At Packsaddle Mountain is Blown Out. Any one who launches in those conditions is gambling, not investing.
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Re: Nate's minor accident at PackSaddle

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:06 pm

I'm sure most of you guys know this, but the force of the wind goes up as the square of the velocity.

So going from 10mph to 30mph is not a factor of 3 in the wind's force ... it's a factor of 9!!

Be careful out there!!!    :shock:
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Re: Nate's minor accident at PackSaddle

Postby Pilgrim » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:32 pm

Hey Bob K,
I might even argue that in a 3 dimensional world and a wing that has lenght, width and height that the factor is even higher than nine in your example. Let the wind be your friend.
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Re: Nate's minor accident at PackSaddle

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:18 am

Pilgrim wrote:Hey Bob K,
I might even argue that in a 3 dimensional world and a wing that has length, width and height that the factor is even higher than nine in your example. Let the wind be your friend.
Pilgrim

From a practical perspective (considering all that the human pilot is dealing with) you may be right!!

The power of 2 (square) comes from the basic equations for all aerodynamic forces. I'll use lift as an example:

  Lift = q x CL x SW

    I'll start with the easy parts first:

      CL is the "Coefficient of Lift" - a dimensionless quantity that describes the ability of the wing to generate lift
      SW is the Surface Area of the Wing - aerodynamic forces tend to be linearly related to areas rather than lengths

    The last of these is "q", and it's what we call "dynamic pressure". Here's the formula (somewhat difficult with text):

      q = 1/2 x rho x (v ^ 2)

        rho is the density of the air
        (v ^ 2) is the velocity squared (v x v)

For this discussion, the only part that matters is that last quantity (v^2). When the wind doubles in speed, you're going to feel 4 times the aerodynamic forces (2x2 = 4). If the wind triples in speed, you're going to feel 9 times the aerodynamic forces (3x3 = 9).

Also, in case you're interested, I used to work in a wind tunnel, and our primary job was trying to measure and calculate the various aerodynamic coefficients (like CL). We did this by simply measuring the lift force of the model and using this equation:

  CL = Lift / (q x SW)

In other words, we simply solved the Lift equation for CL and that became the effective "definition" of CL. It turns out that all of the nasty, complicated aerodynamics are "swept into" CL. Modern fluid dynamics can probably do a very good job of calculating CL using computer models. But when I was in college, the only reliable way was to simply measure the actual forces (Lift, Drag, Pitching Moment ...) in a wind tunnel and then calculate the coefficients from the forces.

The bottom line is to really respect high winds because the forces on your glider will go up with the square of the wind speed. Unfortunately, the strength of our muscles doesn't. :)

Fly Safe!!

Bob Kuczewski
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