[miguel]

The 750 lb gorilla that everyone pretends not to see.







With no insurance this is a sewing circle and nothing more.







Someone must have a friend who is connected to the insurance industry.

[SamKellner]

Miguel,

My magazine came today. A lot of new insurance coverage info. What's with that?

What do you make of it?

Is it event coverage in adition to site coverage?

If so, that adds up to higher premiums for many.

Share some info about the gorilla.

Great topic,
Sam
SWTHG

[Bob Kuczewski]

The real Gorilla in the mist (or through the mist?) is ...

        MEMBERSHIP

Insurance will happen if (and only if) we can put together enough members to make it feasible. We can address the ratings issues overnight by simply honoring all of USHPA's ratings. We can address the training program overnight by adopting the same standards as USHPA, and similarly honoring their instructor's ratings. So these are relatively low barriers to entry. But insurance is just another name for ... membership.

However, until we can build up that membership, we're more than a sewing circle. If nothing else, we can essentially act as a "hang gliding political party" representing the hang gliding interests of our members to USHPA and other entities. We've already been somewhat helpful in this regard by working to support our members (trade names, ratings, personal property, etc). And as a former Director, I've gained a lot of understanding about how USHPA operates, and I think we can use that information to elect better Directors within USHPA. For example, as a minimum, we should be requiring all Directors to support open voting by the USHPA Board so the members will know how their elected officers are voting. I believe the US Hawks can help make that happen.

But even in this capacity, it's all about numbers. If we can build enough numbers, then we can help elect better Directors. If we can build enough numbers, then we can get insurance. If we can build enough numbers then we can establish a Board of Directors who are respected throughout the sport.

That last point is crucial. It's the reason that hanggliding.org isn't likely to become a real national hang gliding organization. Jack is unlikely to turn power over to a board of elected officials with a duty toward their members. That's why he ended up seizing and killing the HGAA. As it grew, he began to realize that he couldn't control it forever, so he forced a coup, installed his own people, and then let it die. It was growing at a tremendous pace when I started it, and it continued to grow under Scott's leadership. But it crashed almost immediately after Jack took control. I wonder why? With a platform like hanggliding.org, doesn't Jack think he could raise the necessary numbers for insurance? Of course he could. But he couldn't do it and maintain the tight fist that he wants. That's the rub.

I don't have those ambitions or control issues. I just want to see a fair and open national association for hang glider pilots that supports its members rather than supporting the "inner circle" as USHPA does. I don't have paid ads on this site, and I've never charged anyone a dime for membership either here or during the 4+ years of the Torrey Hawks. I've walked the walk. But go to Jack's site and you'll see ads everywhere. In fact, you can't even see the pictures unless you're logged in. And he claims to be supporting hang gliding? He's just trying to build an empire so he can hopefully cash in some day. By contrast, my greatest ambition is to see the US Hawks take flight with its own Board of Directors as an organization of pilots and for pilots.

So if we want an alternate national hang gliding organization, the US Hawks is the best chance on the horizon. Here are a few things everyone can do to help make that happen:

• Post to the US Hawks any time you can. Anything (even "pet threads") can help.
• If you post on other sites, please copy and paste that post to the US Hawks (no need to write it twice)!
• Include a link to the US Hawks in your "signature" block on other local and national forums (see mine below).
• Post links to US Hawks topics/posts in other forums. There's sufficient original content here now to justify links to our pages.
• Spread the word to other pilots about joining the US Hawks ... it's free!!!
• Talk to your local chapter about becoming a US Hawks chapter ... it's free and comes with a subforum!!!
• Consider forming a local chapter of your own. A chapter can belong to both USHPA and the US Hawks.

We can do this if we want. All it takes is a little help from a lot of people. Please join us. Please spread the word!!!

[SamKellner]

With no insurance this is a sewing circle and nothing more.

That is extreme. Let's see........

ushpa Regional directors seek votes of sewing circle..........
or
ushpa Regional directors seek votes of US Hawks members.........

[Bob Kuczewski]

Good point Sam!!    Maybe we'll become the "Tea Party" of hang gliding!            

By the way, I wanted to again remember the words of the HGAA's original Chairman - Scott Wise (aka Wingspan34/33).

In late July of 2010, it was becoming obvious that Jack Axaopoulos was preparing his takeover of the HGAA (from Scott) through his control of their forum - which he eventually did. In anticipation of that event, Scott started a Yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HGAofAmerica) and I started a Google group (http://groups.google.com/group/hgaa) so that members of the HGAA could continue to communicate without relying on Jack's HGAA forum. Here's Scott's original introduction to the HGAA Discussion Group (Google Group) web site:

Welcome to the HGAA’s alternate communication group.

Our ultimate goal is to preserve and promote the sport of hang gliding.

The Method? To give every member, new and old, the opportunity to voice their interests and concerns; for the leaders within this Association to encourage and embrace respectful two way communications with their brothers and sisters within the hang gliding community.

Our Philosophy? The value of the Association is no greater than the value of every member. The respect due the Association is no greater than the respect that the Association owes its individual members.

The direction of the Association will always remain open and transparent to every member. Every member has a right to contribute, in some way, to that direction. No member, or group of members, may determine the direction of the Association without the clear approval of a majority of the membership.

With the successful creation of a solid foundation, the glide path to our ultimate goal will involve far fewer obstacles.

Those were some powerful words by Scott (preserved in our "History" section), and those are the kinds of ideals that I hope we'll carry on within the US Hawks. If this sounds like what you'd like to see from your national association, then please join us.

We can do this.

[miguel]

Miguel,

My magazine came today. A lot of new insurance coverage info. What's with that?

What do you make of it?

Is it event coverage in adition to site coverage?

If so, that adds up to higher premiums for many.

Share some info about the gorilla.

Great topic,
Sam
SWTHG

I received the mag today and saw a box announcing the availability of insurance for competitions and events. There was a description of the coverage, deductable and the exclusions and a disclaimer. It reads like it is available, in addition, to the normal coverage.

At McClure, MID, the landowner requires pilots to have U* membership and its liability insurance in order to fly there. That is why all of the pilots are U* members. There is almost no interest in joining a hang gliding organization that has no insurance. I think you will find the same mindset at any site where U* membership is required.

[Bob Kuczewski]

At McClure, MID, the landowner requires pilots to have U* membership and its liability insurance in order to fly there. That is why all of the pilots are U* members. There is almost no interest in joining a hang gliding organization that has no insurance.

I might be proved wrong, but I believe that many (if not most) hang glider pilots will join a free organization that they believe is looking out for their interests at the national level.

I used the phrase "free organization" because money is obviously important to most people. That's why I'm anticipating at least two levels of membership in the US Hawks:

• Free Membership - Provides full access to everything in the organization except insurance coverage. This includes ratings, the forum, voting, mediation efforts, site preservation, etc.
      
• Insured Membership - Provides all of the above + insurance.

There are several benefits to this approach. For example, some pilots don't need insurance to fly their local sites. So why should they have to pay for it? This approach also keeps members involved in the organization even if they aren't active for some periods in their lives. But one of the most important benefits to us right now is that people can join the US Hawks without paying anything. This helps us build up a sufficient base of pilots to eventually (maybe?) actually purchase insurance.   

But even if we never get insurance, we are creating a group of pilots who are standing up for hang gliding and for hang gliding pilots. As USHPA becomes more of a USPHA, we're going to see less and less interest in protecting hang gliding interests. I saw it very clearly when Executive Director Paul Montville visited San Diego during my Directorship. He had little regard for our hang gliding club (Torrey Hawks). Instead, he backed the positions of the mostly PG club (SDHGPA) and the mostly PG Torrey Pines concessionaire. Paul Montville only flew his desk, so I don't think he had a built-in "wingual" bias. He just looked at the growth numbers and they spelled "P-A-R-A-G-L-I-D-I-N-G". That was back when at least the President of USHPA was a hang glider pilot (Lisa Tate). But now, both the Executive Director (Martin Palmaz) and the USHPA President (Rich Hass) are both primarily paraglider pilots. I believe this is foretelling the future of USHPA, and the sport of hang gliding will never again be their primary focus. Hang Gliding will eventually become "that other sport" within the halls of USHPA. If we don't want "second class" status, then we're going to need an organization that stands up for hang gliding.

By the way, I think the Torrey Hawks are a good example here. The Torrey Hawks made some fairly limited headway from an "official" point of view. We did get a seat on the Torrey Pines City Park Advisory Board, and we did get USHPA (at least on paper) to support adding another seat to the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. But those weren't the BIG wins for the Torrey Hawks. Our biggest wins have been the subtle changes in the way that hang gliding is treated at Torrey Pines. You see, the PG concessionaire really fears the Torrey Hawks gaining greater support. So ever since the Torrey Hawks came along, they've been very very nice to hang glider pilots - essentially trying to convince them that there's no need for the Torrey Hawks. So while this has undermined our support (to some degree), the fact is that hang gliding is still getting far better treatment than it was before the Torrey Hawks came along.

For better or worse, people in power only respond to what they respect. Before the Torrey Hawks came along, hang glider pilots at Torrey were pretty much disorganized and easily bullied by Jebb. That's why the Torrey Hawks grew so quickly (currently well over 200 members). Having a club gave us a shared voice and it also gave us a voting block to help defeat David Jebb in the 2008 Regional Director election. As USHPA moves toward USPHA, we're going to need those same two things - a voice and a voting block. The US Hawks is dedicated to supporting the sport of hang gliding whether we can provide insurance or not. If you see a value in that, then please join us.

By the way, this discussion brings up a good point. At this point in time, our association is mostly synonymous with this forum. But that's not quite true. Just because someone signs up for the forum does not mean that they have volunteered to sign up for the actual association. For now, it doesn't much matter, but at some point, we're going to need to make that distinction. My current plan is that people who've signed up for the forum will be given an option to become an actual member at some time in the future. Their membership number and "time in the organization" will start from the date that they signed up for the forum. But we will still allow people who are not members of the association to join the forum and participate in the discussions. However, only actual declared members will have voting privileges within the organization.

Building a national organization to break a monopoly isn't going to be easy. And the "Anti-Hawks" positions of several key people in our sport isn't going to help either. But we are still growing, and I believe we're the best hope for the fair treatment of hang gliding in the future. What's the down side to joining us?

[Rick Masters]

Landowner Liability in California
CIVIL CODE SECTION 846
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... le=840-848
846. An owner of any estate or any other interest in real property,
whether possessory or nonpossessory, owes no duty of care to keep
the premises safe for entry or use by others for any recreational
purpose or to give any warning of hazardous conditions, uses of,
structures, or activities on such premises to persons entering for
such purpose, except as provided in this section.
A "recreational purpose," as used in this section, includes such
activities as fishing, hunting, camping, water sports, hiking,
spelunking, sport parachuting, riding, including animal riding,
snowmobiling, and all other types of vehicular riding, rock
collecting, sightseeing, picnicking, nature study, nature contacting,
recreational gardening, gleaning, hang gliding, winter sports, and
viewing or enjoying historical, archaeological, scenic, natural, or
scientific sites.
An owner of any estate or any other interest in real property,
whether possessory or nonpossessory, who gives permission to another
for entry or use for the above purpose upon the premises does not
thereby (a) extend any assurance that the premises are safe for such
purpose, or (b) constitute the person to whom permission has been
granted the legal status of an invitee or licensee to whom a duty of
care is owed, or (c) assume responsibility for or incur liability for
any injury to person or property caused by any act of such person to
whom permission has been granted except as provided in this section.
This section does not limit the liability which otherwise exists
(a) for willful or malicious failure to guard or warn against a
dangerous condition, use, structure or activity; or (b) for injury
suffered in any case where permission to enter for the above purpose
was granted for a consideration other than the consideration, if any,
paid to said landowner by the state, or where consideration has been
received from others for the same purpose; or (c) to any persons who
are expressly invited rather than merely permitted to come upon the
premises by the landowner.
Nothing in this section creates a duty of care or ground of
liability for injury to person or property.

[miguel]

CIVIL CODE SECTION 846

I am quite aware of the civil code. I have been with three separate groups that used it, trying to open three different areas for hang gliding.

One was a mountain with multiple private owners. The old owners did not care and allowed full access. The new owners (new money) locked the gates. Whenever an owner was talked to, they would politely listen, look at a copy of the civil code, then say they would run it by their lawyers and get back to us. They never followed up even when spoken to again.
The person doing this was a USHPA member but did not use the USHPA landowner insurance paperwork.


The second group had the civil code plus a home made waiver. The landowner allowed access to whomever signed the waiver. He sold the land and the new landowner disallowed access. He was made aware of the the civil code and waivers but still disallowed access. USHPA was not used as some of this group were not USHPA members.

The third group had the civil code plus a USHPA landowner insurance packet. These people got access from private landowners and government agencies. The USHPA landowner insurance packet seemed to make reasonable landowners more cooperative.

Someone needs to contact the insurance provider and find out what is needed to get started.



Trying to keep those tootsies nice and warm.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Someone needs to contact the insurance provider and find out what is needed to get started.

I think Dennis (HGXC on hanggliding.org) has already looked into it for the ill-fated HGAA. The short answer is numbers. If we can get enough members together (1000+), then we can talk about an affordable policy. So keep encouraging people to sign up for this site. When we start to reach 500 we can begin having serious discussions about seeking insurance.

Also, it would be very helpful to have clubs start to sign up as Chapters. It doesn't cost anything and it helps to ensure that they will have an alternate choice if USHPA continues to push its management policies down onto its chapters (like the "no public criticism" policy ).

By the way, I really like that "feet to the fire" photo. That's a summary of my political career in hang gliding!!