[Free]

He said, she said will bore the short attention spanners.
You guys knock it off and get back to the real targets. Jack Axaopoulos and u$hPa!
They are the real liars and frauds.

Magenta is wrong about the "private" business, coffee shop, living room or whatever excuse Jack pleads.
Jack Axaopolous FRAUDULENTLY LIES about rules and etiquette.
He's committing a crime against all of us with the unjust operation of his commercial data mining profit center.

Maybe he needs an Alex Jones confrontation like yesterday's Google hearings on Capitol Hill.
https://www.infowars.com/all-the-chaos- ... e-hearing/
All the Chaos & Confrontations From Alex Jones Crashing the Google Hearing
All the best clips

Jack Axaopolous is a piss-ant gnat in the big picture of google and facebook censorship but the fight against it is the same.

[Bob Kuczewski]

He said, she said will bore the short attention spanners.
You guys knock it off and get back to the real targets. Jack Axaopoulos and u$hPa!
They are the real liars and frauds.

Thanks. That's the crux of the discussion.

Jack Axaopolous banned Joe Faust, and I was trying to get Frank, Red, or Michael to speak up on Joe's behalf. None of them will speak up for Joe because they're afraid Jack will ban them.

That's about 90 posts boiled down to 2 sentences.

Does anyone object to that summary?

[Bob Kuczewski]

Here's the slightly longer version.

Joe, Frank, Mike, and Tom are all nice friendly hang glider pilots who've known each other for an average of about 30 years. They're all hanging out with other pilot's at Jack's place (no one is quite sure if Jack's place is a coffee shop or Jack's living room or something else). They're each talking about their favorite topics when Jack walks over and throws Joe out the door. Frank and Mike complain a bit and then go silent. Tom never says a word. Before long they all go back to their conversation and buy another round from Jack.

Bob hears about the story and thinks it's shameful. Bob tries to spread tbe word so more people will know about it. Frank, Mike, and Tom get extremely upset with Bob for spreading the story.

The End.

[Red]

If you have had enough of this BS, then just consider something, for me. How many times have you written speeches for me, then sent them to me, together with some form of manipulation to try to coerce me into delivering your LYING FRAUD to another forum?

I am of Joe's mind on this topic. If I see something where I have knowledge that others might not, I offer that information. I might just say what I know or I might suggest wording or an entire post. But I've never asked you to post what you're calling "LYING FRAUD". In fact, the previously posted messages are good examples of the suggestions I've made. Just out of curiosity, are any of those suggestions what you consider to be "LYING FRAUD"?

Bob,

Whether accurate or not, for me to go anywhere spouting your words as if they were mine would be a deception, a LYING FRAUD at your instigation, plain and simple. Is that not clear to you? Those are NOT my words. Those are NOT my ideas. I am a parrot for nobody, as well as I can manage that choice effectively. I refuse to follow your orders, now and forever.

Rationalize your proposed deception on another forum in any way you please, but I will be no part of it. Your issues are just that: your issues, not mine. You should not waste your time and energy thinking that your squabble with another forum is any concern of mine. You are using Joe in all of this, which is very clear to me, and I fully expect there will be a next one, and a next, until you run out of people to send. I find this whole mess to be disgusting and shameful on your part, and I will not join in that game. I regret that you employ such tactics, with good people being used by you as your surrogates. I'd expect Joe to be upset at what has happened, but none of this mess is my doing, and I will not be any part of it. Ask me in a year, or in ten years, and you will get the same answer.

Lastly, I fully expect that by now, your nemesis has been following this thread. If so, you must realize that he would never act on anything I might say to him now, concerning this issue. Waste all of the time and energy on attempting to use me as your pawn that you may wish; I refuse to join your rabid campaign. I believe this public discussion has made me entirely useless, or worse, in your cause. At best (in your opinion only), I might lose the use of another forum, but I have no intention of playing your BS games. Now you will just have to find yourself a different patsy.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bob,

Whether accurate or not, for me to go anywhere spouting your words as if they were mine would be a deception, a LYING FRAUD at your instigation, plain and simple. Is that not clear to you?

That is neither clear nor true. As Joe very well stated, suggestions are made available for you to pick and choose whatever parts you find suit your own tastes and beliefs. You might take the whole. You might take any parts. You might not take a single word but write from scratch. The same is true with the ideas. You might take all, some, or none.

But that whole discussion is a red herring (no pun intended). My key request, and the point of this whole discussion is that you try to take some action - any action - to speak against the unjust silencing of Joe Faust. You could have used your words or my words or Martin Luther King Junior's words. The point was just that you find SOME words to speak against it. In the end you didn't use any words (not mine, not yours, not MLK's) to speak for Joe Faust.

At this point I'm just documenting the history of our time. I think the record is now very clear that I made many attempts to get you and others to speak up. For some reason (whatever reason) you chose to remain silent. That's now part of the historical record.

My own interpretation of that historical record is that the silencing of voices (like Joe's and Scott's and others) on hanggliding.org has helped USHPA maintain their monopoly control of hang gliding. It has also helped suppress the voices who might have spoken up to prevent accidents over the years and to prevent injustices over the years.

That's the bigger picture, and that's why we have free speech in the first place. Free speech isn't provided just to make us feel good. Free speech is provided because the founders of this country realized that it was a key ingredient in keeping government on track. That operates on all scales and in all venues. A big part of the reason that USHPA lost their insurance was because they had effectively silenced the voices that were calling for better oversight and better procedures. That situation still exists to this day.

[brianscharp]

Just for the record, Red's quote above that captures a corrected misspelled "publisged" and missed up end "[/quote

]" was accurate. I happened to be reading when the update was added and the mistakes corrected. Unfortunately there isn't an edited note, even though it occured after Red's post.

You are correct. I fixed the spelling and properly matched the quote afterward. I was rushed to our company Christmas party before I could proof read it. I did not change it in Red's quote because I felt that would be changing HIS post. I don't believe those cosmetic changes ('g' to 'h', and removing whitespace in a quote tag) are what's at issue here. But they remain in Red's post to document my haste.

Of course those changes themselves weren't the issue, but at the time you were making a false accusation of Red and ironically suggesting he calm down. If not noted, it could've given the appearance he had changed your quote.

[Red]

Bob,
Whether accurate or not, for me to go anywhere spouting your words as if they were mine would be a deception, a LYING FRAUD at your instigation, plain and simple. Is that not clear to you?

That is neither clear nor true. As Joe very well stated, suggestions are made available for you to pick and choose whatever parts you find suit your own tastes and beliefs. You might take the whole. You might take any parts. You might not take a single word but write from scratch. The same is true with the ideas. You might take all, some, or none.
At this point I'm just documenting the history of our time. I think the record is now very clear that I made many attempts to get you and others to speak up. For some reason (whatever reason) you chose to remain silent. That's now part of the historical record.

Bob,

I regret that clarity and truth continue to elude you. I made a part of your speech bold faced, for emphasis. I am happy to have that option available from you. Thanks. Having considered all of the words you suggested, and my own preferences, I have (long ago) decided to say everything I want to say about this issue right here, enclosed in these brackets [.] for clarity.

Please accept my choice here as final. The reasons for my choices are not the reasons that you may believe, but I am not obliged to explain anything to anybody, and certainly not to you. As far as history goes, I am quite content to let history (and consequences) balance my careful choices against your near-sighted values, as expressed here.

Thanks to Brian, of course. Blessed are the peacemakers . . .

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks. Having considered all of the words you suggested, and my own preferences, I have (long ago) decided to say everything I want to say about this issue right here, enclosed in these brackets [.] for clarity.

Please accept my choice here as final.

I do accept it as final, and that's exactly what I wanted to be sure was well documented. You watched Joe Faust be banned from hanggliding.org (having broken no rules that you've been able to express) and you chose to say nothing. You've done the same in other cases in the past. All of your protests and false accusations in this topic have been an attempt to divert attention from that simple painful fact.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Of course those changes themselves weren't the issue, but at the time you were making a false accusation of Red and ironically suggesting he calm down. If not noted, it could've given the appearance he had changed your quote.

This has been an obviously contentious topic. It has moved at a fast pace, and there has been considerable confusion in what's posted because some of the posters have been confused themselves. Most notably, Red made a long series of very harsh accusations based on his misreading of a properly quoted post. I'm tempted to go back and add moderator's notes at a number of places where the reader might also be confused. But at this time I feel that would only re-inflame the topic. I will let it all stand as written with any corrective notes (such as your own) also in place. I believe that makes the record clear for anyone willing to read to the end.

[brianscharp]

Of course those changes themselves weren't the issue, but at the time you were making a false accusation of Red and ironically suggesting he calm down. If not noted, it could've given the appearance he had changed your quote.

This has been ...

Who are you calling a has been?