[Frank Colver]

Frank, I know you're mad at me right now because you know your name is likely to end up on this list for not continuing to speak up for Joe Faust.

That's bulls***! Speak for yourself Bob. Where are your posts on HG.org? Oh, that's right you think the path to success is for all of us to mute ourselves so we can't even speak anywhere but here (where we're preaching to the choir).

At this point in time I have done more to try and get Joe back into HG.org than you or anybody else on this planet. At one point I thought I might have succeeded until your "Wall of Shame" post came out and blew my efforts out of the water.

If all I get for my public and private efforts on Joe's behalf is your ridicule, instead of your thanks, then I am pissed off about that. I have done all that I can do to help Joe. Just deliberately getting myself banned does nothing for Joe. I had hoped that working behind the scene would help and it was certainly worth a try.

It's high time you did something for Joe or put your name at the top of the shame list, Bob. I think your real objective is to just grow your list of "Banned Brothers" because you are sure not doing anything to help Joe get back on HG.org.

As far as starting a new national org it is going to take a big group effort. That's a cop out saying that I should do it.

[wingspan33]

If Hawks becomes the bitch, bitch, bitch, forum only those who love to bitch will be here.

Frank,

You are right that if all the US Hawks is about is being HG's version of Complaint Central then that would not be good. But there is also that old poem -

"First they came for the [fill in blank], and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a [fill in blank]

. . .

Then [finally] they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Well, this thread is about speaking out. Since Bob was the original author then he is someone who speaks out the FIRST time someone comes to take someone away (or ban them from sg dot org). To me that means that Bob has more honor and less fear than many/most people.

Many years ago I was a VERY active contributor on sg dot org. I was nominated to be the "interim chairman" of the proposed HGAA (which was mainly Bob K's idea). SG claimed he was not going to have much to do with it, but then became VERY involved. While he held ABSOLUTELY no leadership position in the HGAA, he ended up inventing a conflict that he then used to ban me from the (newborn) HGAA (which he had technical control over). Fairly quickly there after he also banned me from sg dot org. Bob K spoke up for me, in no uncertain terms, and got himself banned. Bob did not say something, get a warning, then accept that warning and then become silent on the topic. Bob is one of the most honest people I know and is also not afraid to speak his mind on important topics. He has what is called an ethical and moral character.

I got a phone call from a well known hang glider / paraglider pilot a couple of evenings ago and he said there a lot of PG pilots who are also completely dissatisfied with the strangle hold USHPA has on both sports. I think the momentum is building toward the formation of a new national org or perhaps two if we seperate HG and PG. With that momentum we can begin!

Frank, the US Hawks is the result of the momentum you refer to above. Only it began many years ago and your conversation of "a couple evenings ago" comes off as being quite strange. The US Hawks have not sped quickly toward becoming a big nation wide Hang Gliding NFP Corporation. Slow and steady has been more the idea. As far as PG's go I'm not sure why you are hinting at getting in bed with them. Again that seems strange. Bob K has flown both wings. I have flown both wings (but 99.99999999% of the time hang gliders). The US Hawks is NOT a PG or a HG/PG organization. It's about recreational hang gliding. I am also puzzled how it is that one phone call has convinced you that some new found "momentum" exits.

This org needs to start like the original USHGA started with a complete BOD and a phone / email contact and probably a Facebook account (I personally don;t do Facebook). The person who called me said he didn't think we could use forums anymore, to start a new organization.

As far as having a Board of Directors and phone # and email list, . . . I think we've already got that here. Aren't you on the board? I don't believe in feeding FaceBook, but many sheeple think it's the hottest thing since sliced bread. And your friend's comment about a forum site not working sounds more or less idiotic to me.

Also in order to even get a start Bob needs to be completely unassociated with it other than being a regular member, if he chooses. Bob, I love you, but you have poisoned the water and anything associated with you gets slammed before it can get born. Joe and I and others get shut out because we are your friends. Any new national org has to be independent of Bob and not have Bob's "fingerprints" on it so that its life can begin.

It's not Bob, Frank. It's what Bob has been trying to do. And what you're proposing is EXACTLY what Bob began proposing many years ago. The current national org will quickly black ball you too if you start any significant effort to challenge it. If you are a current member of the U$hPa you will join Bob on the Banned-from-the-Club roster. You will be accused of actually trying to KILL hang gliding (and probably also PGing) in the US. Many people will accuse you of "poisoning the water" in the figurative hang gliding well.

My final comment is about this "well known hang glider/paraglider pilot" who contacted you the other night. Have you ever heard of the old strategy called "Divide and Concur"? There are many ways to play that game.

[wingspan33]

At this point in time I have done more to try and get Joe back into HG.org than you or anybody else on this planet. At one point I thought I might have succeeded until your "Wall of Shame" post came out and blew my efforts out of the water.

Frank, Efforts that are behind the scenes can not be detected by those from whom they are hidden.

If Bob knew you had swum over to the enemy sub (to talk peace) Bob probably wouldn't have fired the torpedo.

[Frank Colver]

When I launched the campaign of PM's with Jack I told Bob in an email exchange that I was going to try the PM communication route. This was because posting on HG.org does absolutely nothing to solve the issue because it is taken down before anyone sees it. PM's can continue as long as both sides are willing to talk. I tried to explain to Bob that just posting stuff no one sees until getting banned does nothing at all to help Joe.

I thought that Bob would back off for a while when i told him i would be PMing Jack. I was in the process of trying to convince Jack that Joe's HG rating database had nothing to do with Bob when the wall of shame appeared. Now Jack is not replying to my PM's but I will give him time and i'll try again.

I guess it would be funny if it were not so serious: I have not ceased to speak on Joe's behalf except I don't ask for Bob's approval first.

BTW - I did not intend to join with PG's I think they need their own organization and the two orgs work together on common goals. The person who I talked with on the phone was definitely not trying to divide and conquer, he wants to replace USHPA.

[Bob Kuczewski]

If I go through the list of people who've posted on this topic I find some of my best friends in the sport and some of the greatest names in the sport. I am at the very very bottom of that list, and I am humbled by each of you.

The U.S. Hawks has very clear enemies who would like to see us disappear. Jack Axaopoulos is near the top of that list. He takes every action he can to make us literally disappear. He has deleted posts. He has changed posts. He has locked topics. He has buried topics in his basement. He has defaced our former Torrey Hawks forum. He has destroyed the very promising HGAA that was entrusted to him. He has banned some of the best people in the sport of hang gliding, and he intimidates others with threats of banning. He has lied about good people, and he has lied to cover his own misdeeds.

In short, Jack Axaopoulos is an extremely evil and underhanded person. What he did to Joe Faust is just the tip of the iceberg.

I had a long talk with Rick tonight, and a long talk with Mike (was it last night?). I've had long talks with Joe and with Scott as well. From a tactical viewpoint, I think this topic was a mistake on my part. It has caused a great division in our ranks, and I am sorry for that.

Several of you (in this topic) have used analogies to war with references to torpedoes and the Art of War. Sadly, this effort is very much like war. Many innocent people have already been hurt, and more innocent people continue to be hurt. It's horrible.

But this is not a war that we've started. We have wanted simple things like fair representation, and transparent governance, and due process when we are accused. We've wanted freedoms to enjoy the gifts of natures forces harnessed by man's ingenuity. These are the things of our birth right that were earned by men who fought real wars with real swords and real bullets throughout human history.

It is the love of these freedoms that has brought us together on this little outpost. We are truly a band of brothers depending on each other. That's what makes it so painful for some of us to see actions which strengthen the same people and organizations that want to crush us.

I truly believe that everyone here has the best intentions. But just as in war, sometimes uncoordinated efforts can result in "friendly fire" casualties. If there's been some confusion about how to help Joe, I think it comes from those uncoordinated efforts. We are all independent people, and we seldom feel the need to ask permission of each other for our actions. That's the price of an organization that encourages (and usually applauds) independent initiative. We either pay it and regroup to go on together or we refuse to pay it and go our separate ways.

But whatever happens, this has been an extraordinary group of pilots who have come together to attempt an extraordinarily diificult and worthwhile feat. I am proud to have been a part of it.

[Bob Kuczewski]

At this point in time I have done more to try and get Joe back into HG.org than you or anybody else on this planet. At one point I thought I might have succeeded until your "Wall of Shame" post came out and blew my efforts out of the water.

Frank, Efforts that are behind the scenes can not be detected by those from whom they are hidden.

Frank,

I started this topic to document a grave injustice in the history of hang gliding. As Scott has succinctly stated, if you want that history to reflect your private efforts you'll have to share them. The same is true for anyone else.

[Free]

How great that everyone here gets to share their opinion.
How many of you are allowed to do that at Jack's coffee shop, living room or whatever he wants to call it today? Not me.
He's moved the goalpost from declared promotion of hang gliding to the profit of adverti$ing hits as true motivation.

Joe's selfless work of a pilot's registry is a true benefit to the sport and Jack's bigoted censorship of that effort is an attack on thousands of pilots like myself who may find value to the service that Joe Faust is doing in our behalf.

History is never recorded by truth never told. If a tree falls and no one sees it, hears it or makes note that it happened, is it really a historical fact that someone down the road can acknowledge? What if the only report was there was never a tree to begin with?

If Jack writes lies, such that Frank and Joe are merely shills for Bob and Rick, the lies become history if not confronted or corrected.
History does not take care of itself, Rick. Walking away from a lie only condones the lie.

My simple idea/strategy is to confront lies. To not let them stand as historical markers.
But its not popular to call out someone's lies and especially so when they wield some political clout.

That's been the problem, from day one, as Bob has put his own popularity on the line by calling out the inequities of the corporate Borg that assimilated and transmogrified the pilot's organization that Joe, Frank and others originally founded.
Now he calls out a developing inequity of historical significance to thousands of pilots.
Damn that guy! Stepping on toes. Naming names.
Why doesn't he color within the lines like we say he's supposed to do?

Gee, I dunno. It's what I like about him.

I don't think anything was lost by pushing back in this topic.
If Jack wants to rewrite history to make himself look better, he still can.
I would salute him myself if he could see his way to reinstate Joe Faust and allow the pilot registry fair access to the 'largest hg community in the world'. If that moniker is true it would make the forum a public square. There is a 1949 Supreme Court ruling that even if a public square is privately owned you can't censor speech for political purpose.
Put Joe back and that would be enough for me. I can walk away.
I would argue for Bob to disappear this thread to save Jack's embarrassment and exposure.

Try that carrot in your negotiations Frank.
Its better than more stick.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Warren, this is the best statement in this whole topic:

History is never recorded by truth never told.

It was so good that I "googled" it to see if it had been said before:

No results found for "History is never recorded by truth never told".

I think you've got an original winner there.   

That's all I have to add. Everything else you wrote is perfect as it is.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Inspired by Scott's quotes in the related topic ...

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[Bob Kuczewski]

From the topic titled "Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.org":

I would like to hear from Joe on the subject.

He has only one post on this thread - the "Boom" post.

Many of us in the Hang Gliding Community support Joe and appreciate his contributions.

Your thoughts and feelings, Joe?

From the topic titled "Joe's reinstatement in HG.org effort""

I now broadly request that every poster around the world in the sg space post an ultimatum to sg:

"Sg, unban Scott and Bob and Joe and probably some others, alter your policies severely or else such is the last posting of this poster."

Within a few days the sg space would be empty of posts unless sg changed

Clear enough?