[Bob Kuczewski]

Dennis, you are doing a brave thing taking a stand against this power play.
John was telling you that you are now in the cross hairs of the distortions and gang mentality.

Agreed. Dennis is a good man for trying to fix this. Dennis approached this from a perspective of friendship and healing. Look at how he was treated for his effort.

Mark essentially tells Dennis to "shut up" with his repeated one liner:

Please consider not posting here again till Bob has stopped.

Stopped what?

- Stopped speaking my mind?
- Stopped telling what really happened?
- Stopped breathing?

So now Dennis should consider not posting on hanggliding.org until Bob has "stopped" something? Where does Mark get the right to virtually shout Dennis down for speaking his mind?

[Free]

Dennis is a good man for trying to fix this. Dennis approached this from a perspective of friendship and healing. Look at how he was treated for his effort.

Mark essentially tells Dennis to "shut up" with his repeated one liner:

Please consider not posting here again till Bob has stopped.

Stopped what?

- Stopped speaking my mind?
- Stopped telling what really happened?
- Stopped breathing?

So now Dennis should consider not posting on hanggliding.org until Bob has "stopped" something? Where does Mark get the right to virtually shout Dennis down for speaking his mind?

Mark digs himself in deeper in misplaced loyalty to the the happy happy "Banned of Brothers"
Seems like a gang mentality of budding fascism to me. John Wright may understand it as "Lord of the Flies" sandbox politics. That book seems to have had an impression on him but probably more so, the military 'intelligence' training he is indoctrinated in at the expense of the taxpayers. Military "intelligence" is double speak for distortion and manipulation and John gets a c+ in that department.

They really jumped the gun in trying to take over the insurgency of hang gliding.
It really is a tough time to do so. Kicking out George Washington and Thomas Jefferson wasn't the thing to do.
Lies and distortion can't cover up the mess they have produced.
Now they have Thomas Paine in the crosshairs?

[Bob Kuczewski]

Here's Jack's latest post:

Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:44 am Post subject: Reply with quote #68

I think johns means YOU dont want to end up on BOBS enemy list, because then you will bear the brunt of his abuse for months and possibly years no matter what you do or say, forever and ever. He will start a permanent campaign to trash your name forever. Just go look at the new hawks forum.

Great way to promote the sport Rolling Eyes Great way to build bridges there. Great way to work with people. Rolling Eyes Bob has dynamited so many bridges and lost so much support, and yet he continues to run down that road. He's hanging himself. You need to work on BOB, not us. The hgaa site is no longer a war zone, I wonder why. Oh excuse me... I mean the sgaa Rolling Eyes Bob hasnt done a damn thing to deserve coming back to this community. If he seriously thinks he can just keep trashing us every month and then have us welcome him back, he's got another thing coming.

Tell Bob the CENSOR who EDITS PEOPLES POSTS we dont allow any 1984 types here ROFL I couldnt possibly allow a post editing person to come here, because then Bob would go crazy for months about it... oh wait... Laughing

With regard to "BOBS enemy list" let me say that I treat people according to their actions:

- David Jebb was bullying David Beardslee so I challenged him.
- USHPA was conducting secret votes so I challenged them.
- JB was removing posts from topics so I challenged him.
- Jack and John were banning people so I challenged them.

I don't see the world as containing enemies. I see it as containing people who are doing the wrong thing and need to be challenged on their behavior. If they correct that behavior, then we've all won. If they don't fix it, then I keep challenging them. Is this news to anyone?

Jack, you and John have banned people because you couldn't stand up to their criticisms. Instead, you took the easy (and cowardly) way out. Dennis was trying to help you get past that and preserve some of your pride. Dennis wasn't asking for anyone to admit guilt but to just let it pass. But you attacked him instead. That's pathetic.

Regarding my "editing" of Dennis' post, I simply replaced the letters "uck" with "***" and also replaced the letters "hit" with "***". It's funny that Jack would complain about that since that's essentially what hanggliding.org does to everyone's posts.

As for burning bridges, I'm just telling the truth. Those who can't handle the truth will consider that a "burned bridge", but that's on them. I'm always willing to work with anyone. Furthermore, everyone on hanggliding.org (or any other forum) is welcome to hold their discussions here. Unfortunately, the same is not true in reverse.

[Free]

More doublespeak from chairman knumbnuts:

Yea, Dennis, the enemies list I was warning you about is Bobs.

You see, I used to defend him the way you do, maybe even more. Just try not to piss people off on his behalf. You may find some day that the loyalty will not be returned in kind.

First, John Wright says that Bob has an enemies list.
So now countering lies and distortions is paramount to an enemies list?
And that distortion comes from someone wielding an eternal "Banned of Censored Brothers" list.

Then John Wright warns Dennis not to piss people off on Bob's behalf.

Still sounds like a personal warning from Mr. Knumbnuts, to me.

Why would Bob seek revenge on someone risking a banning in his behalf?
That just doesn't make any sense.

[Bob Kuczewski]

About John Wright ...

Here's what John Wright posted on hanggliding.org at http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=19108&start=71 (Sep 26, 2010 7:22 am):

1. Hi Warren! Nice to see you found a little petri dish of an online forum over there that you probably won't be booted from.

2. Dennis, the point I am making is this: Bob has been very helpful to you, as he was to me over the last two years. In return, you, like I, are defending him and advocating on his behalf.

You are making a request for him better than he could make it for himself. I suggest you let him make it himself.

I am also warning you that, just because you are defending him and advocating on his behalf, do not think he won't some day post something relating you to a lynch mob, literary villains, and other various insults and innuendos.

Because that is a possibility, I am suggesting you be careful not to go too far in your defense of him. You are saying some things that could easily be taken wrongly by those whom you are saying them to. I figure that's just you, that's the way you are, and I have yet to take anything personally.

I am just sharing my experience: it sucks to defend Bob, have Bob turn on you, have to completely shut Bob out of your life because he knows no boundaries, and then have to come back to those same people that you were pissing off on Bob's behalf.

In my case, I am now living in San Diego. I fought the general San Diego flying community on Bob's behalf in the recall election and I can tell you, it got personal and ugly. I took some real hits.

What do I have to show for that? Well, I am Bob's arch villain. That's fine, as long as it doesn't interrupt my "normal" life, so be it.

But, as I enter the San Diego flying community, I find that I am still associated with Bob, avoided because of my defense with him, and generally walking around with a Scarlet B on my chest.

To what gain? All I got was a guy who made it his life goal to drive a fire truck up my a** and raise the ladder.

Just trying to help another guy from making the same mistake: defend Bob or don't, but it's not worth going to the extent of pissing other people off.

What seems to go right over John Wright's head is that none of this is about defending people. It's about defending what's right.

John is so caught up in his loyalty to Jack, that he can't bring himself to criticize Jack when Jack is in the wrong. That's the same kind of behavior that allowed Jebb to become such an unchecked bully in San Diego. It's also the same kind of behavior that allowed USHPA to become such a bully as well.

John, I don't see you or Jack or JB as "bad guys". But you've allowed yourselves to go astray in your actions because you're acting out of gang-like loyalty rather than out of objective fairness. You've made it all about people when it should never be all about people. It should be all about people's actions. You say that you are "Bob's arch villain" - but you're not. As far as I'm concerned, you're just a guy who's been making some bad decisions. When you stop making bad decisions, you'll find I'll be just as friendly as ever. Heck, I could get along with Brad Hall or even David Jebb if they just did the right thing. Ask anyone who knows me well, and they'll tell you that's true.

So let me ask you a question John. You say you have a "Scarlet B" on your chest from defending me. Do you feel you ever did anything in defending me that wasn't right?

[Bob Kuczewski]

About Dennis ...

I can't say enough about Dennis having the courage to do what he's done on hanggliding.org.

There are people who will see someone in trouble by the side of the road ... and just keep on driving. Dennis didn't do that, and he stopped to help. I wish there were more people who would do that.

Dennis stood up and tried to fix something that he saw was broken. He knew that would make him a target, and now he has to walk on egg shells as his reward. Warren said: "Now they have Thomas Paine in the crosshairs" referring to Dennis. That's quite a compliment since Thomas Paine is often considered "The Father of the American Revolution". That kind of praise looks good on you Dennis. Wear it well.

Does that make Dennis perfect? No. Does that mean Dennis can do whatever he wants for the rest of his life without criticism from me? No. If Dennis screws up, I'll call him on it, just as I have with John, Jack, and JB. That's what we should all do for each other.

It's not so important that we all make mistakes ... because we all do. What matters more is how we respond when we're called on those mistakes. Those who wall themselves off from criticism are doomed to spiral into the false feedback of their buddies. That's how Jebb got to be such a bully, and I suspect that's how Hitler became such a bully as well (go ahead and "Goodwin" me if you like). The only thing that keeps humans on a straight path is being willing to hear and accept the criticisms of others. Jack and John have insulated themselves from that criticism and they're basking in the false "peace" it provides.

[Free]

Dennis stood up and tried to fix something that he saw was broken. He knew that would make him a target, and now he has to walk on egg shells as his reward. Warren said: "Now they have Thomas Paine in the crosshairs" referring to Dennis. That's quite a compliment since Thomas Paine is often considered "The Father of the American Revolution".

Real men do what's right.
That's what "loyalty" is all about. Not what John Wright is selling.
Dennis is my newest hero and he's in good company of very few.
I hope that his example will move someone else to stand up for what's right.
Are we mice or are we men?

[Dennis]

I am pretty disappointed that my efforts bore little to no fruit at all, I am also disappointed that the parties just could not seem to reach out to one another to the degree it would have found success in these efforts.

In the end, it is hang gliding that suffers, for all of the men in that fray are valuable to this sport in the things they contribute, hang gliding was a better place where we were all at the same table to discuss it as it were. There seems to be so many divisions within divisions, we are USHPA's biggest ally in our fight against USHPA. Maybe fighting for peace is more akin to humping for virginity, but, I still think the cause is worth it.

As to me being on egg shells over what I said on HG.org, I am not concerned about it for several reasons.
1. I do not think I've given any reason for Jack to desire to ban me in that thread.
2. Someone MIGHT dislike me? My wife already dislikes me, probably the reason we're not married anymore. So, no new experience there.


As to Bob and my loyalty, my loyalty goes very far, until I am betrayed, than, that loyalty is withdrawn. Bob and I HAVE disagreed, he has asserted that he would not think twice to disagree with me, I have the same policy with Bob. Bob HAS annoyed me before, but, my friends ARE ALLOWED to do that. I don't walk around worrying about Bob betraying me in the future, Bob has some very old long standing friendships with people, obviously he doesn't go about doing that.

I read what John Wright wrote, he is obviously passionate about his feelings on the matter, but I do think those feelings are needless, I think both Bob and John would feel much better if they just let the matter go, never spoke of it again and just enjoyed the fact they are both pilots and smart men!

I think the same of Bob and Jack too!

In fact, I think that about EACH of the parties involved.

I am betting USHPA is VERY pleased with not only this outcome, but all of us for how things have played out. All of the sudden, Ping-Pong Paul looks reasonable. It's like saying Nancy Pelosi is sane and conservative.

Well, I guess I am going to shake off this moment and reflect on a cigar and a glass of tea.

-Dennis