[magentabluesky]

To:
Bill Cummings
Joe Faust
Sam Kellner
Bob Kuczewski
Scott Wise

Subject: Stop Slandering My Name Bob

Gentlemen of the US Hawks Board,

It has been brought to my attention that Bob Kuczewski has and continues to make false and defamatory statements about me, Michael Grisham, on the US Hawks forum in violation of the US Hawks terms of agreement upon registration, agreeing not to post any slanderous material.

On November 25, 2018 Bob Kuczewski posted the “Wall of Shame banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.org” Link In that posting Bob Kuczewski specifically named, Michael Grisham and screen name “magentabluesky”. Just to paraphrase, Bob’s message in the thread was to Shame anyone not speaking out against Jack banning Joe Faust from hanggliding.org for promoting Joe’s USHGRS on Jack’s website. Bob believes Jack’s banning of Joe is an injustice to Joe. A central theme in Bob’s opinion is that people did not speak up in defense of Joe for fear of Jack also banning them from hanggliding.org.Link

Bob Kuczewski is entitled to his opinion, but his opinion becomes a problem when Bob represents his opinion as fact, “The Truth”, when he knows or any reasonable man would know that he is promoting pure fiction, a lie. Bob Kuczewski is knowingly pushing the idea that I am not speaking up against Jack on Joe’s behalf because I am afraid I would be banned from hanggliding.org. Bob knows that is a lie or should know that is a lie based on the facts having been presented to him.

The following post by Bob Kuczewski is a slanderous lie injuring my reputation in the Hang Gliding Community and is a violation of the US Hawks policy.

Re: MoHawk Uprising
by Bob Kuczewski » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:51 am
Here's the truest analogy. Frank Colver, Tom "Red" Howard, and Mike Grisham were all aware that Joe Faust was being unjustly treated by Jack Axaopoulos ("sg"). They were all aware that Joe's voice was being silenced. And yet they all chose to protect their own ability to "hang out in Jack's living room" rather than stand in solidarity with Joe.

There's no truer analogy ... than the truth. Link

On December 11, 2018 I made two posts representing my position on the subject of Jack banning Joe Faust. First, I stated that hanggliding.org was the personal property of Jack and Jack’s actions were well within his property rights, period. Link

The second post on December 11, 2018 clearly stated my support of Joe Faust and should have dispelled any notion of me even considering being banned by Jack as numerous times I have mentioned BobK and defended BobK in direct violation of Jack’s rule banning any mention of BobK on hanggliding.org. Link I have to humbly admit at this time defending BobK on hanggliding.org was a mistake on my part as I am in full agreement with Jack that BobK is toxic. I owe Jack an apology.

On December 23, 2018 Bob Kuczewski called me on the phone. The phone conversation was 3 hours 9 minutes and 41 seconds. Specifically, in that phone conversation with Bob Kuczewski, when he brought up the subject of me being afraid to speak up out of fear from being banned from hanggliding.org., I stated, “There was not a neuron or synaptic firing in my brain that even considered Jack banning me from hanggliding.org if I spoke up for Joe Faust.” I continued and stated “if I was concerned with being banned, I certainly would not have been mentioning you or defending you in direct defiance to Jack’s ban on posts referencing BobK.” There was complete silence on phone. Bob had no reply. That is the Absolute Truth.

In that phone conversation I made it clear, that I supported Joe and Joe’s USHGRS, but I believed Jack has property rights in his ownership of his website and he was not obligated to provide web space or bandwidth for ideas or beliefs he did not support.

So let me restate the problem specifically, Bob Kuczewski is representing and promoting a lie as the truth about me and my position when he states I am not speaking out against Jack because I am afraid I will be banned from hanggliding.org.

I fully support Joe, but also respect Jack’s property rights.

Bullsh-t Bob needs to stop promoting his lying fraud about Michael Grisham.

I expect a retraction and an apology from Bob Kuczewski and the US Hawks Board.

As a matter of fact, Bob Kuczewski and the US Hawks Board should also publicly apologize to Frank Colver and Tom ‘Red” Howard and the Hang Gliding Community for Bob Kuczewski’ behavior in this matter.

If you actually believe the terms of your registration agreement, Bob Kuczewski should resign from the US Hawks Board and be banned from the US Hawks forum for violation of the registration agreement as he has slandered my name and reputation.

“All it takes for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.”

Michael Grisham

[JoeF]

I move to give this matter top level attention.
Perspectives?
Admission of opinions versus absolute truth is important.

=================
I've known Michael to have my back and to give regular support for my projects for many years consistently.
He has deep investment in right ordering what he can within hang gliding. I've experienced him as fearless; he works hard to bring forward well referenced material that has helped the hang gliding community.

I side with the idea of property rights. I had publicly stated that sg could probably lose in court of law regarding damages brought by misrepresenting text done by people...altering text and presenting false statements in the name of the poster; his property rights gives him no right to do such stealing from posters. But sg may ban anyone at any time via his property rights. But the words of people are within property rights of those writers; sg has stolen from many people via text alteration, I hold. Sg may erase whole texts; he is doing such; such is better than misrepresenting posters' texts.

Michael has a right to his good reputation; whatever changes may be needed in the USHawks forum to protect Michael's rights should be done. I am not clear on what is to be done. Let's work on some text for publishing; let's see if we may before publishing obtain Michael's agreement over our text.

Michael's posts at sg place: HERE

Michael's post at USHawks: HEREUSHawksFORmagentabluesky

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks for posting Michael.

First and foremost, the U.S. Hawks Board is an advisory board. I take full responsibility for the content and operation of this forum. If the U.S. Hawks Board would like to address the matter, I would welcome the discussion. But from a legal standpoint, all responsibility rests with me.

Second, the fact that we have a Board to hear such matters and offer advisement is something unique to the U.S. Hawks. The fact that you can bring such a matter to the Board and the fact that you can continue to post your grievances here reflects the value that we place on all speech - both yours and mine.

Third, your statement that I am "toxic" is your opinion, and if you are entitled to express such an opinion, then so am I. I believe the statements that I've made express my own opinions, and I believe they express them reasonably well. I believe the quote you've listed is understood to be my opinion without it being explicitly stated. However, if you'd like me to add a moderator's note to the effect that it is Bob Kuczewski's opinion, please feel free to suggest appropriate wording.

Fourth, the phrasing of your subject forebodes legal action against me. While I do not look forward to such proceedings, they would likely prove helpful in establishing precedents - one way or the other - on such matters as USHPA's defamatory letter and the various statements that still exist regarding myself and Scott Wise on hanggliding.org.

Fifth, regarding my silence on the phone, it's always wise to remember that silence is neither consent nor agreement. I do remember the silence, and I remember considering whether you were capable of really hearing my arguments through your defensive filter. I was trying to decide if I was wasting my time by continuing to urge you to speak up for Joe. In the past I'd held you in high regard for your willingness to speak up, and my long pause was a painful realization that I might have been wrong. Time will tell.

Finally, please let us know if you'd like to initiate an item for the Advisory Board. The Board can choose to discuss such requests privately or publicly, but all final decisions will be made public. If you would like to participate in the discussions, I would vote to hold them publicly for your benefit. Just let us know.

Thanks.

To:
Bill Cummings
Joe Faust
Sam Kellner
Bob Kuczewski
Scott Wise

Subject: Stop Slandering My Name Bob

Gentlemen of the US Hawks Board,

It has been brought to my attention that Bob Kuczewski has and continues to make false and defamatory statements about me, Michael Grisham, on the US Hawks forum in violation of the US Hawks terms of agreement upon registration, agreeing not to post any slanderous material.

On November 25, 2018 Bob Kuczewski posted the “Wall of Shame banning of Joe Faust from hanggliding.org” Link In that posting Bob Kuczewski specifically named, Michael Grisham and screen name “magentabluesky”. Just to paraphrase, Bob’s message in the thread was to Shame anyone not speaking out against Jack banning Joe Faust from hanggliding.org for promoting Joe’s USHGRS on Jack’s website. Bob believes Jack’s banning of Joe is an injustice to Joe. A central theme in Bob’s opinion is that people did not speak up in defense of Joe for fear of Jack also banning them from hanggliding.org.Link

Bob Kuczewski is entitled to his opinion, but his opinion becomes a problem when Bob represents his opinion as fact, “The Truth”, when he knows or any reasonable man would know that he is promoting pure fiction, a lie. Bob Kuczewski is knowingly pushing the idea that I am not speaking up against Jack on Joe’s behalf because I am afraid I would be banned from hanggliding.org. Bob knows that is a lie or should know that is a lie based on the facts having been presented to him.

The following post by Bob Kuczewski is a slanderous lie injuring my reputation in the Hang Gliding Community and is a violation of the US Hawks policy.

Re: MoHawk Uprising
by Bob Kuczewski » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:51 am
Here's the truest analogy. Frank Colver, Tom "Red" Howard, and Mike Grisham were all aware that Joe Faust was being unjustly treated by Jack Axaopoulos ("sg"). They were all aware that Joe's voice was being silenced. And yet they all chose to protect their own ability to "hang out in Jack's living room" rather than stand in solidarity with Joe.

There's no truer analogy ... than the truth. Link

On December 11, 2018 I made two posts representing my position on the subject of Jack banning Joe Faust. First, I stated that hanggliding.org was the personal property of Jack and Jack’s actions were well within his property rights, period. Link

The second post on December 11, 2018 clearly stated my support of Joe Faust and should have dispelled any notion of me even considering being banned by Jack as numerous times I have mentioned BobK and defended BobK in direct violation of Jack’s rule banning any mention of BobK on hanggliding.org. Link I have to humbly admit at this time defending BobK on hanggliding.org was a mistake on my part as I am in full agreement with Jack that BobK is toxic. I owe Jack an apology.

On December 23, 2018 Bob Kuczewski called me on the phone. The phone conversation was 3 hours 9 minutes and 41 seconds. Specifically, in that phone conversation with Bob Kuczewski, when he brought up the subject of me being afraid to speak up out of fear from being banned from hanggliding.org., I stated, “There was not a neuron or synaptic firing in my brain that even considered Jack banning me from hanggliding.org if I spoke up for Joe Faust.” I continued and stated “if I was concerned with being banned, I certainly would not have been mentioning you or defending you in direct defiance to Jack’s ban on posts referencing BobK.” There was complete silence on phone. Bob had no reply. That is the Absolute Truth.

In that phone conversation I made it clear, that I supported Joe and Joe’s USHGRS, but I believed Jack has property rights in his ownership of his website and he was not obligated to provide web space or bandwidth for ideas or beliefs he did not support.

So let me restate the problem specifically, Bob Kuczewski is representing and promoting a lie as the truth about me and my position when he states I am not speaking out against Jack because I am afraid I will be banned from hanggliding.org.

I fully support Joe, but also respect Jack’s property rights.

Bullsh-t Bob needs to stop promoting his lying fraud about Michael Grisham.

I expect a retraction and an apology from Bob Kuczewski and the US Hawks Board.

As a matter of fact, Bob Kuczewski and the US Hawks Board should also publicly apologize to Frank Colver and Tom ‘Red” Howard and the Hang Gliding Community for Bob Kuczewski’ behavior in this matter.

If you actually believe the terms of your registration agreement, Bob Kuczewski should resign from the US Hawks Board and be banned from the US Hawks forum for violation of the registration agreement as he has slandered my name and reputation.

“All it takes for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.”

Michael Grisham

[Bob Kuczewski]

Good comments Joe.

I side with the idea of property rights.

I do as well. But it's important to not confuse "rights of law" with moral notions of "right and wrong". The fact that Jack owns a forum does not relieve anyone of the moral obligation to speak up when someone is being mistreated. It matters not where the mistreatment occurs. I believe the only morally defensible position is to speak out as long as the injustice exists. I believe that to do otherwise is shameful. I further believe that the long history of injustices that humans have perpetrated on each other have depended upon shameful silence.

I had publicly stated that sg could probably lose in court of law regarding damages brought by misrepresenting text done by people...altering text and presenting false statements in the name of the poster; his property rights gives him no right to do such stealing from posters.

Excellent point. The "property rights" argument does not address this aspect of the situation.

Michael has a right to his good reputation

Michael has a right to the truth being told about him. It's a right that we all share. It is our duty as a community to let truth be known. Ironically, that's exactly what's been missing at sites like hanggliding.org. It's been missing there because too many people have made excuses to allow lies to stand as unchallenged "truths".

whatever changes may be needed in the USHawks forum to protect Michael's rights should be done. I am not clear on what is to be done. Let's work on some text for publishing; let's see if we may before publishing obtain Michael's agreement over our text.

All suggestions are welcome. It has always been my intention that the record be as clear and correct as possible.

[Bill Cummings]

Below Joe F. is suggesting a motion to address Michael's expectations.
Should Joe F. wish to make an official Motion it will look like this:
  I move to give this matter top level attention.  
Upon seeing this the next step is a   Second   to the Motion by
another Trial Board Member.
All input received on the, Issues for the US Hawks Board of Directors (Open for all to see.) will be
considered if the board decides to discuss the   Motion   in private, at:
Board of Directors Private Discussions (Decisions will be posted for all to see.)
Below is a synopsis:
__________________________________________
magentabluesky
Michael Grisham

I expect a retraction and an apology from Bob Kuczewski and the US Hawks Board.

__________________________________________
by JoeF

I move to give this matter top level attention.

__________________________________________
by Bob Kuczewski

Finally, please let us know if you'd like to initiate an item for the Advisory Board. The Board can choose to discuss such requests privately or publicly, but all final decisions will be made public. If you would like to participate in the discussions, I would vote to hold them publicly for your benefit. Just let us know.

­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­__________________________________________
On this matter do we hear/see a   Motion   before the Board?
To proceed we will, following the   Motion  , need to hear/see a,  Second.  

[Bob Kuczewski]

Great leadership ... as always ... Bill.     

I'll just add 2 comments:

1. Official issues should be started in: "Issues for the US Hawks Board of Directors".
2. Imagine Michael requesting such a proceeding against Jack on hanggliding.org.  

                                        
Update:

Since this is obviously a contentious issue, I've already introduced a motion that the Board look into the matter. It will only take one other Board member to second that motion.

If the motion should be seconded, the Board will investigate the truthfulness of this quote:

Re: MoHawk Uprising
by Bob Kuczewski » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:51 am
Here's the truest analogy. Frank Colver, Tom "Red" Howard, and Mike Grisham were all aware that Joe Faust was being unjustly treated by Jack Axaopoulos ("sg"). They were all aware that Joe's voice was being silenced. And yet they all chose to protect their own ability to "hang out in Jack's living room" rather than stand in solidarity with Joe.

There's no truer analogy ... than the truth.

That will naturally involve determining whether the Board feels that Joe Faust was treated unjustly by Jack Axaopoulos since that's a key part of the quoted text.

[Free]

Re: MoHawk Uprising
by Bob Kuczewski » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:51 am
Here's the truest analogy. Frank Colver, Tom "Red" Howard, and Mike Grisham were all aware that Joe Faust was being unjustly treated by Jack Axaopoulos ("sg"). They were all aware that Joe's voice was being silenced. And yet they all chose to protect their own ability to "hang out in Jack's living room" rather than stand in solidarity with Joe.

There's no truer analogy ... than the truth.

That will naturally involve determining whether the Board feels that Joe Faust was treated unjustly by Jack Axaopoulos since that's a key part of the quoted text.

Standing in solidarity and committing hari kari are two different issues that you are erroneously conflating.
This whole dog and pony show is a waste of time and effort. The only good thing that could possibly come out of this is the publicity of Jack Axaopoplous' transgressions.

[Bob Kuczewski]

The only good thing that could possibly come out of this is the publicity of Jack Axaopoplous' transgressions.

Bingo!!

The U.S. Hawks Board would not normally weigh in on someone's banning from another forum. But Michael's request of the U.S. Hawks Board gives the Board good cause to look into the matter and issue a ruling on whether it was justified or not.

[Free]

The only good thing that could possibly come out of this is the publicity of Jack Axaopoplous' transgressions.

Bingo!!

I have, at times, considered that you were playing 3-D chess in a checkers world but am
thinking too much risk to reward is the payoff you are reaping.
These pilots stand in solidarity with Joe but didn't like your military offensive style attack plan.
You're not getting the return on your investment you were counting on.
It's time to change tact. Alter course and re-focus on the proper target.
I'll bet if you do, you will regain support for the right cause.

[magentabluesky]

That will naturally involve determining whether the Board feels that Joe Faust was treated unjustly by Jack Axaopoulos since that's a key part of the quoted text.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the above quote.

This has to do with Bob misrepresenting my beliefs on the subject.

This has to do with Bob misrepresenting my motivations.

This has to do with Bob making a claim of what my beliefs and motivations were as the truth after I have clearly stated what my beliefs and motives were, contrary to Bob’s declaration.

This has to do with Bob’s continuing promotion of this propaganda about my beliefs and motivations.

This is about Bob defaming me with lies slandering my name and reputation.