[Bob Kuczewski]

Michael,

I've asked the same simple question a number of times in a sincere effort to try to find a solution to your complaint. So far you've refused to answer even that one simple question. Instead, you continue to post diversions (see above and in other topics).

You came to the Board with a complaint, and we've tried to handle it promptly and professionally. Your continued willingness to evade simple questions undermines your claims of ongoing damages.

Let me ask once again: Is it your position that Joe Faust's treatment on hanggliding.org was just treatment or unjust treatment?

Thanks.

[magentabluesky]

Bob, Stop.

I am not here to play games with you.

This entire matter appears to revolve around the 5 sentence post that you've been quoting.

This does not revolve around a five sentence post. It is about month after month after month, no, year after year, wait a life time of Bob not being able to read and comprehend the words of another person on this planet earth.

Early on in this, I stated: “Bob, you are out of line. Don’t tell me what I believe and don’t believe.”

Bob, I do not need you as my “spokes person”. I can speak for myself and I have spoken for myself. I have been consistent on my position throughout.

The problem with your five sentence post in representing what you want the public and Warren to believe about my thoughts and motivation is it is too simplistic. It does not cover the subject matter of the case at hand and is not representative of the truth.

I have provided you and the world my views on the subject in voluminous form. If you can’t figure it out through simple reading and comprehension, I cannot help you out with “your problem”.

Specifically addressing your flat out lying (again and again), when you say “but they backed down when Jack threatened them.” That is Bullsh-t Bob promoting a Lying Fraud.

Again:

At no time has Jack ever personally threatened me in a private communication or a public statement. I have never been threatened by Jack or felt threatened by Jack. This is something clearly made up by Bob.

Then on December 23, 2018 Bob called me. The first thing out of my mouth was telling Bob he was out of line. I used very strong words. I have provided the US Hawks Board with an account of that phone conversation:

On December 23, 2018 Bob Kuczewski called me on the phone. The phone conversation was 3 hours 9 minutes and 41 seconds. Specifically, in that phone conversation with Bob Kuczewski, when he brought up the subject of me being afraid to speak up out of fear from being banned from hanggliding.org., I stated, “There was not a neuron or synaptic firing in my brain that even considered Jack banning me from hanggliding.org if I spoke up for Joe Faust.” I continued and stated “if I was concerned with being banned, I certainly would not have been mentioning you or defending you in direct defiance to Jack’s ban on posts referencing BobK.” There was complete silence on phone. Bob had no reply. That is the Absolute Truth.

Finally, I feel for Joe Faust. In the Dec 11, 2018 post I said, “Bob, I went back and read my posts last night. To be quite frank, I cannot believe the support I poured out in Joe’s defense. Go back and read my posts. “

Honestly, I could not believe some of the positive passionate posts I had made on behalf of Joe.

Joe is fantastic. I love his thought streams. He gets me thinking in new directions on subjects I had never considered before.

With that being said, it does not give Joe super rights over everyone else. Joe and Jack have the same rights. When I am standing up for Jack’s rights, I am also standing up for Joe’s rights, because they have equal rights.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bob, I do not need you as my “spokes person”. I can speak for myself and I have spoken for myself. I have been consistent on my position throughout.

Michael, I have asked numerous times whether you feel Joe Faust was justly treated or unjustly treated. You have not spoken for yourself on that very important aspect of your complaint to the Board.

I have provided you and the world my views on the subject in voluminous form. If you can’t figure it out through simple reading and comprehension, I cannot help you out with “your problem”.

Michael, please don't expect the Board to "figure it out" when you are being asked a simple straightforward question. We are trying to understand your complaint. If you won't answer simple questions, then you are making the task nearly impossible. Is that your intention?

Joe is fantastic. I love his thought streams. He gets me thinking in new directions on subjects I had never considered before.

With that being said, it does not give Joe super rights over everyone else. Joe and Jack have the same rights. When I am standing up for Jack’s rights, I am also standing up for Joe’s rights, because they have equal rights.

You keep trying to use the term "rights" when I have been speaking about fairness.("just treatment" and "unjust treatment"). They are different. The quote you've included in your complaint did not mention rights. I had said that you were aware of Joe being treated unjustly. We've established that you were aware of the situation, but we have not established whether you feel that treatment was just or unjust. That's what I am asking.

Michael, you've asked this Board to remove me as a Board member and to ban me (expel me?) from the U.S. Hawks altogether. That is a serious request. I believe I have a right to ask pertinent questions in the long-standing tradition of facing one's accusers. In such a situation you should be prepared to answer simple questions about your complaint. If you're not willing to do that, then you are not serious about your complaint or your claimed damages.

[magentabluesky]

My Cease and Desist Request is that Bob Kuczewski ceases to speak on my behalf and ceases to declare what I believe and don’t believe and that Bob Kuczewski refrains from outright lying about the facts of this matter.

Whether Joe Faust was treated fairly or unfairly has no bearing on Bob Kuczewski speaking on my behalf, declaring my motives, and lying about the facts of the matter while representing them as the truth.

[Bob Kuczewski]

My Cease and Desist Request is that Bob Kuczewski ceases to speak on my behalf and ceases to declare what I believe and don’t believe and that Bob Kuczewski refrains from outright lying about the facts of this matter.

No it isn't. Read your complaint again. Maybe you can't even remember what you wrote. You asked to have me removed from the U.S. Hawks. You even quoted a specific passage that we are now investigating.

Whether Joe Faust was treated fairly or unfairly has no bearing on Bob Kuczewski speaking on my behalf, declaring my motives, and lying about the facts of the matter while representing them as the truth.

I believe I've shown that the unfairness of Joe's banning is a central point in the matter. Why are you so uncooperative in answering that simple question? Furthermore, I've never spoken on your behalf. I have offered my opinions regarding the situation surrounding Joe Faust being banned from hanggliding.org. That is not speaking on your behalf.

[magentabluesky]

This is Bob’s put down:

Maybe you can't even remember what you wrote.

This is the way Bob Bullies and Demeans people.

Anything unjust that Bob thinks Jack did pales in comparison to the injustice that Bob dishes out.

No, I remember what I wrote.

This sentence you wrote ascribing to what I believe is too simplistic and does not represent my views on whether Joe Faust was treated justly or unjustly and therefore is not representative of the truth of my belief on the matter.

Here's the truest analogy. Frank Colver, Tom "Red" Howard, and Mike Grisham were all aware that Joe Faust was being unjustly treated by Jack Axaopoulos ("sg").

You represented it as the truth. It is not representative of my belief. It is too simple and does not cover the subject matter, Bob. Don’t tell people what I believe and don’t believe and represent it as the truth.

Now let us get to the outright lying fraud lie Bob is promoting:

And yet they all chose to protect their own ability to "hang out in Jack's living room" rather than stand in solidarity with Joe.

And

but they backed down when Jack threatened them.

Bob has been informed multiple times by posts and direct verbal communication that I did not consider being banned by Jack from hanggliding.org as influencing what I write on that website or any website. Furthermore as I have said, if I was considering the punishment of being banned I most certainly would not have mentioned BobK in my posts on hanggliding.org defending BobK with Jack’s prohibition on the mere mention of BobK.

Even furthermore let me repeat:

At no time has Jack ever personally threatened me in a private communication or a public statement. I have never been threatened by Jack or felt threatened by Jack. This is something clearly made up by Bob.

Bullsh-t Bob is promoting a lying fraud about any motives I may have or not have.

Bob is lying about the facts.

The only conclusion I can come to is Bob is a liar.

Bob, stop lying about me.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Michael,

My comments about you not remembering what you wrote were meant to be kind. Your statement above was:

My Cease and Desist Request is that Bob Kuczewski ceases to speak on my behalf and ceases to declare what I believe and don’t believe and that Bob Kuczewski refrains from outright lying about the facts of this matter.

Anyone can compare that to your actual "Cease and Desist Request" and find them miles apart. I felt that suggesting the difference was based on not remembering was kinder than calling you a liar.

At this point, I think our positions are fairly clear to everyone. Maybe it would be a good time to take a break. I've invited you to call me or to let me know if you'd welcome a call. That invitation remains open.

Bob

[Bob Kuczewski]

Fellow Board Members, I suggest that we start establishing a few (hopefully) uncontroversial facts.

One fact that I would like to establish is that Joe was unfairly banned. As I've argued with Michael, fairness is not the same as legality. I am personally not sure how Jack's banning stands under the law. But that's not our task here.

We are considering statements made about the "justness" or "unjustness" of the banning. In that regard, it's often helpful to use the golden rule: how would we feel about being treated as Joe was treated.

With those thoughts in mind ...

    I move that the U.S. Hawks Advisory Board find that   
   Joe Faust was unjustly banned from hanggliding.org in 2018   
   considering the existing rules in place at that site and time.    

We can have a "second" followed by a vote and/or continue the discussion.

[Bill Cummings]

I have avoided posting and seldom read anything at hgdotorg for several years.
Are there screen shots here of the rules in place during Joe's banning or can I see them without logging on to that disreputable site?

[Bob Kuczewski]

I just found Joe's own posting of the rules from 2016:

Jack Axaopoulos alias "sg"

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

= KEEP IT CIVIL. Attacking other members, or covert implied attacks are NOT allowed. No harassing or stalking other members. Inflammatory posts are not allowed. This includes "photoshopping" member pictures in a negative way. You will get a warning if you break this rule. If you persist to do this, you will be banned.Threads that start to spin out of control, will be LOCKED. If you wish to cry censorship because a thread is locked when people start acting like children, take it to another forum.

= Dont spam the forum. No advertising on this site. Ask SG for permission first.

= When posting, think about non-HG pilots who come to visit the site every day. Please put your best foot forward and showcase the fun adventurous atmosphere we experience every day in the landing zone after a great flight

= No aliases. One account per person.

= No PORN. It is against my server companies policies and there are plenty of other websites for that stuff. If you couldn't show it on TV, don't post it here.

= Please treat the admin as a regular user. As long as you follow the rules, there is NO CHANCE you will banned because you disagree with the admin. The admin would like to be part of this community too without having to walk on egg shells because people think his word holds more weight for whatever reason. It does not. But the admin will do his job as moderator when he has to. But please follow the rules and don't make him do it, he doesn't enjoy that part.

= No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

Jack's heavy-hand rule over his forum reveals a huge rift in hang gliding online discussion opportunity. Jack wants to be "part of this community" which he carves out a huge faction of people and dubs them "poison" to the sport of hang gliding; he makes such his official rule. Jack Axaopoulos alias "sg" Participants in his forum must always face the possibility that they themselves may be titled "poison" at any turn by Jack. Jack has programmed certain words and links to be converted to derogatory non-linking phrases; this prevents his forum participants from freely sharing information about hang gliding. Jack has proven to be a thought-controller by his rules. Yet he uses "please" in "Please treat the admin as a regular user." There is no logical way for a sound participant to treat the admin Jack A. as "regular user" when guillotine ax is ever near Jack's hand and keyboard.
The story about how Jack A. treated a trust regarding Torrey Hawks has been written in the USHawks forum someplace:
_______________________________________ Careful study of the actions involved would bring important data to those who are participating in Jack's forum.

May19clip2016.JPG

You'll note that Jack uses broad phrases like "Inflammatory posts are not allowed". That must be considered in the context of common practice at the site. Jack himself makes inflammatory posts all the time. Remember, we're trying to decide fairness and justness. It may have been perfectly legal to own slaves at one time, but that didn't make it fair or just.