Do you think Joe was in a "fair fight" with Jack able to change Joe's posts and ban him at will?
To use your analogy, Coach Grisham climbs the wall to watch the unarmed Joe Faust be slashed with razor blades.
How many strikes is it now Michael?
magentabluesky wrote:In Junior High, Maude B. Davis, when a fight would break out on the athletic field, a crowd would gather around the two combatants. Coach Kelsey and Coach Sheldon would climb a decorative block wall to the roof getting a good vantage point to watch the fight, insuring the fight was fair with no weapons involved and no one was getting killed.
Coach Kelsey and Coach Sheldon would let the students sort out their differences and the student on lookers honored that code of conduct as well. The coaches and the students let them settle their own conflict.
Ban or no ban? The button only has two positions.
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magentabluesky wrote:. . . . and the village idiot would want to force Joe to carve out equal web space for the paragliders and the LBGTQ group.
. . . . because that would be the moral thing to do.
Board Members,
The topic has strayed considerably from Michael's original complaint.
However, that straying has been helpful because it's given us a number of examples of Michael's own conduct on the forum. Michael has used a variety of tactics such as name calling and making statements that are obviously not true. While I don't appreciate his statements, they are his opinions ... just as mine are mine. Michael's own behavior undermines his claims and helps make our job easier.
Michael has also refused to answer some very pertinent questions related to his claim. His uncooperative approach to resolving his own complaint also undermines his claim.
For all these reasons, I think we should start moving toward concluding these proceedings. Any thoughts are welcome.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization:US Hawks at ushawks.org View my rating at:US Hang Gliding Rating System Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
"Bob Kuczewski is representing and promoting a lie"
as the truth about me and my position when he states I am not speaking out against Jack because
"I am afraid"
I will be banned from hanggliding.org.
I expect a retraction and an apology from Bob Kuczewski and the US Hawks Board.
At this time would any Trial Board Member (Advisory Board) wish to propose a motion? Suggested courses of action: 1) Continue here on this thread. (Issues for the US Hawks Board of Directors) 2) Reconvene in private discussions. (Board of Directors Private Discussions) 3) Vote on a retraction. 4) Vote on an apology from the board. 5) Vote on a retraction and an apology from the board. 6) (OTHER.) 7) (None of the above.)
A defamatory statement must be false -- otherwise it's not considered damaging. Even terribly mean or disparaging things are not defamatory if the shoe fits. Most opinions don't count as defamation because they can't be proved to be objectively false. For instance, when a reviewer says, "That was the worst book I've read all year," she's not defaming the author, because the statement can't be proven to be false.
The provability of a statement being false is an important issue. That's why I have asked Michael if he felt Joe Faust was justly banned or unjustly banned. Michael has refused to answer that question.
Michael has also claimed that he did speak up for Joe. I believe this is true, but then at some point Michael stopped speaking up for Joe. So what transpired between the time that Michael spoke up and the time he went silent? I've asked Michael for those posts and he's refused to post them as well.
It is my assertion (belief) that Michael stopped speaking up for Joe because he was afraid of being banned by Jack. Fear cannot be easily proved or disproved because it is a state of mind. But there are clues that can be observed. We know that Jack uses fear of banning to back people down. He did so in this case. In fact, the original banning of Joe itself sent a message that Jack will ban people for saying things that Jack doesn't like. Michael certainly knew of Joe being banned. Michael also knew that Jack wouldn't like it if Michael continued to speak up. So all of the elements of Michael backing down out of fear were present. So an opinion that Michael backed down out of fear is supported by the facts. But it is unprovable in either direction.
Finally, the issue as to whether a statement is opinion or not is not an issue at all in this case. Any statement about something that - on its face - can't be known must be an opinion. As mentioned in the example from nolo.com, states of mind (was that really the worst book read all year?) are unprovable and are implicitly opinion. In the interest of clarity I've offered to add moderator notes stating that they were opinion, but Michael has not agreed to accept that offer.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization:US Hawks at ushawks.org View my rating at:US Hang Gliding Rating System Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
Let see if we have this straight, Totalitarian Bob is shaming people on the Wall of Shame for posting on Hang Gliding dot Org because Jack banned Joe Faust from posting on Hang Gliding dot Org but Joe Faust is now soliciting “Someone, please, consider posting this notice at sg’s place.” on the Oz Report.
So in fairness to Joe, Bullsh-t Bob is sticking to his moral code to fight the good fight in protecting Joe from Jack while Joe is actually recruiting posters for Jack’s place. All the while Bob Kuczewski secretly visits Hang Gliding dot Org running up Jack’s visitor numbers so Jack can get higher revenue for the ads on Hang Gliding dot Org. As I said, Bob just write Jack a check.
Mean while back at the ranch, Banishing Bob is flogging Joe’s true supporters on the Wall of Shame. Those are the one who actually posted on Hang Gliding dot Org in support of Joe or were in contact with Jack working on getting Joe back on Hang Gliding dot Org.
The casual observer is trying to understand your sense of fairness and your moral code, Bob.
Michael, we are trying to resolve your specific complaint in this topic. I started this topic in the public area so you could participate in a responsible manner. So far you have refused to provide:
Whether you felt Joe was justly or unjustly banned
The evidence of the posts you made in Joe's defense
The evidence of Jack's response to those posts
The reason you went from speaking out to being silent
These are all important and relevant items in this matter.
Instead, you use clearly defamatory names like "Totalitarian Bob" and "Bullsh-t Bob" and "Banishing Bob". While you've engaged in such name calling, you'll notice that I have not. Your conduct is not consistent with your complaint. Nothing in your previous statement (quoted below) addresses the actual issues in this matter. At this point I would like to add to Bill's list of choices:
The Board determines that Michael's claims were baseless.
The Board determines that Michael's claims were frivolous.
The Board determines that Michael's statements are defamatory.
The Board determines that Michael has endeavored to damage the U.S. Hawks.
The Board determines that Bob's statements have not been proven to be false.
I'd like to emphasize that last point because there are potential legal ramifications of this discussion. As described in the nolo.com article (cited above), defamation requires that the disputed statement(s) be proven to be false. Statements regarding state of mind are not provable to be false or true. They are implicitly matters of opinion. I have offered to add moderator notes further clarifying this in the disputed posts. If Michael is indeed seriously concerned about damages to his reputation, then he should welcome those changes. So far, he has not. Instead, Michael has dragged out this process as an opportunity for more name calling and more damage to the U.S. Hawks. I believe that is Michael's true motive in his claims, and that is why I recommend that they be dismissed as unfounded.
magentabluesky wrote:Let see if we have this straight, Totalitarian Bob is shaming people on the Wall of Shame for posting on Hang Gliding dot Org because Jack banned Joe Faust from posting on Hang Gliding dot Org but Joe Faust is now soliciting “Someone, please, consider posting this notice at sg’s place.” on the Oz Report.
So in fairness to Joe, Bullsh-t Bob is sticking to his moral code to fight the good fight in protecting Joe from Jack while Joe is actually recruiting posters for Jack’s place. All the while Bob Kuczewski secretly visits Hang Gliding dot Org running up Jack’s visitor numbers so Jack can get higher revenue for the ads on Hang Gliding dot Org. As I said, Bob just write Jack a check.
Mean while back at the ranch, Banishing Bob is flogging Joe’s true supporters on the Wall of Shame. Those are the one who actually posted on Hang Gliding dot Org in support of Joe or were in contact with Jack working on getting Joe back on Hang Gliding dot Org.
The casual observer is trying to understand your sense of fairness and your moral code, Bob.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization:US Hawks at ushawks.org View my rating at:US Hang Gliding Rating System Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
The real issue is Bob Kuczewski making statements as what my beliefs, motives, feelings, etc. which are not my beliefs, motives, feelings, etc. Furthermore the declarations that Bob is making about me, he should know are not true based on my postings and my phone conversation with him.
I have made known my true beliefs, motives, and feelings to Bob Kuczewski. So if Bob Kuczewski has a conscious rational mind of a normal human being, Bob Kuczewski should know he is propagating lies about Michael Grisham’s true beliefs, motives, and feelings.
The first time I warned Bob about "speaking" for me was three months ago on Dec 03, 2018:
It is now seventeen days from when I presented you (the Board) with the Cease and Desist Request. It should have been so simple. It should be so simple. I have not asked for damages, just the truth.
At issue is this declaration by:
Bob Kuczewski wrote:Re: MoHawk Uprising by Bob Kuczewski » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:51 am Here's the truest analogy. Frank Colver, Tom "Red" Howard, and Mike Grisham were all aware that Joe Faust was being unjustly treated by Jack Axaopoulos ("sg"). They were all aware that Joe's voice was being silenced. And yet they all chose to protect their own ability to "hang out in Jack's living room" rather than stand in solidarity with Joe.
This is not Bob Kuczewski expressing his opinion. This is a declaration of the “truth”.
The first sentence Bob is representing this as analogy, but tied to the last sentence he states: “There's no truer analogy ... than the truth,” claiming this as some universal cosmic truth let alone Bob’s true beliefs or Michael’s true beliefs.
Addressing the second sentence:
Frank Colver, Tom "Red" Howard, and Mike Grisham were all aware that Joe Faust was being unjustly treated by Jack Axaopoulos ("sg").
Does Bob Kuczewski even believe this?
Bob Kuczewski wrote:No one has argued that Jack couldn't ban Joe. Link
Bob acknowledges Jack's right to ban Joe.
Bob Kuczewski wrote:I agree with the Supreme Court's decision in the Phillips case (Masterpiece Cakeshop, LTD v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission). Link
Bob agrees the owner publisher editor publisher is the authority over their content.
Bob Kuczewski wrote:
magentabluesky wrote:So Bob to be clear, it is your position that Jack should be required to provide web space and band width on hanggliding.org to Joe even though Jack does not believe in promoting Joe’s USHRS?
Bob agrees the owner publisher editor publisher should not be required to provide rebuttal space for opposing positions.
So if Bob is agreeing to these specifics, where is the injustice?
Michael Grisham believes: The greater injustice would be to require Joe to carve out web space for the promotion of paragliding, LBGTQ community, and any other group asking for rebuttal space. That would be injustice.
Interesting: That will be the central question in the upcoming lawsuit Leaving Neverland vs. The Jackson Family.
. . . . the Jackson estate has decried Leaving Neverland as one-sided, complaining in particular that no one from the family was contacted to provide a rebuttal to James Safechuck and Wade Robson’s claims. Link
Now the third sentence:
“They were all aware that Joe's voice was being silenced.”
Michael Grisham does not believe Joe’s voice is being silenced as Joe Faust personally owns multiple web sites exercising his free speech as owner, publisher, and editor.
That too is a completely false statement from my view and beliefs.
Coming to the forth sentence:
“And yet they all chose to protect their own ability to "hang out in Jack's living room" rather than stand in solidarity with Joe.”
At no time has Jack ever personally threatened me in a private communication or a public statement. I have never been threatened by Jack or felt threatened by Jack. This is something clearly made up by Bob. That fact was clearly communicated to Bob in the December 23, 2018 phone call after his post on Dec 20, 2018. Link
It never crossed my mind to be banned by Jack and I clearly stated that to Bob Kuczewski in the personal phone call:
“There was not a neuron or synaptic firing in my brain that even considered Jack banning me from hanggliding.org if I spoke up for Joe Faust. . . . . . a long silent pause on the phone.”
Once again I was not personally warned or threatened by Jack ever and did not “feel” any presence of a threat by Jack. This flat out lie Bob Kuczewski is pushing about Jack threatening me with banishment and me not speaking up out of fear of banishment from Hang Gliding dot Org was never present in my cosmic universe. Bob’s statement in sentence four is not true.
The point is my beliefs and motives were made known to Bob Kuczewski over three months ago with the first warning to Bob about telling me and the rest of the world what my beliefs were on December 3. 2018.
This is Bullsh-t Bob promoting a “lying fraud”.
The request is simple, Bob Kuczewski stop lying to the world as to what Michael Grisham believes and what his motives are. I am fully capable of speaking for myself.
I have not given Bob Kuczewski my credit card, my car, the house, or my voice. So, Bob Kuczewski stop speaking for me. It is that simple.
Cease and Desist.
President Trump: “They are trying to take you out with bull****”
wingspan33 wrote:I would like to put forward a motion to the US Hawks B.O.D. The location of my motion will be obvious.
If Scott is agreeable, I think his private suggestions should be listed here in single line(s) as Bill and I have done. They are all valid options to consider. I can add them to Scott's post above to keep everything in order if Scott would like that.
I will be following with a suggestion of my own to add to our "buffet" of choices. We'll have plenty to chew on.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization:US Hawks at ushawks.org View my rating at:US Hang Gliding Rating System Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
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