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Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:06 am

Let's review:

Swift proposes to discuss saving hang gliding:

Swift wrote:Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Let's start a conversation. I have an idea that can positively result in the growth of new pilots.
People can start lining up with their own arguments and I'll hold mine off for a while. 
Do you see hang gliding dying a slow death, or not? 
Steve Pierson's recent concerns as the premier hg manufacturer in the US tells me the premise is true. What can we do about it?


Then the clowns that Davis nurtures have a cat fight about all kinds of unrelated nonsense. Who gets banned ... excuse me ... "deleted" by Davis Straub?

Swift!!!!      :shock: :crazy:

So the guy with the original idea is the one that gets booted from the discussion!!!

Then Davis puts up an "iron curtain" to keep out certain other ideas (like the U.S. Hawks) that Davis doesn't like. Bille Floyd cheers, and off they go to save hang gliding with the best minds in the sport neatly out of the discussion.

I included this as number 2 in my list, but it probably should have been #1:

Bob Kuczewski wrote:Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding
 :
2. The hang gliding community cannot continue to allow their communication channels to be controlled by Jack and Davis. There have been far too many good pilots with good ideas that have been silenced by those two clowns. And who do they silence? Some of the most talented and energetic people in the sport: Joe Faust, Rick Masters, Scott Wise, Ben Reese, Bob Kuczewski, Tommy Thompson, Warren Narron, Brian Horgan, Al Hernandez, and many others.
 :
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Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:46 am

From USHPA's web site:

USHPA wrote:Tracking membership with no ratings (including Contributing Members) began in 2010. Prior to 2010, members with no ratings or ratings in both wing types were tracked in the Both category. Recreation RRG was established in March 2016 and began issuing policies in June 2016.

USHPA Membership - 1972-2019
USHPA_Membership_by_wing_type.png
USHPA_Membership_by_wing_type.png (87.18 KiB) Viewed 1045 times


The gray line is total USHPA membership. The blue line is hang gliding, and the orange line is paragliding.

This graph reflects what happened to me in early 2004 when I went to Torrey to look into hang gliding lessons. I'd made my first hang gliding flights in 1978, and my first paragliding flights in 1990. In early 2004 I decided to dedicate myself to getting the hang gliding ratings to fly at Torrey.

So I went to Torrey to ask about hang gliding lessons. David Jebb and I sat down at one of the old round tables, and Jebb began:

      Jebb: "What do you do for a living Bob?"
      Bob: "I'm an aeronautical engineer, but I mostly write software."
      Jebb: "All the professional people are getting into paragliding now."
      Bob: "I'm really interested in hang gliding."
      Jebb: "We don't teach hang gliding here. But you could be paragliding today."

How many times has that well-rehearsed discussion been repeated since Jebb took over Torrey Pines in1998? How many? You can count them right there in the blue line on that graph.

In 2007, we founded the Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club to try to reverse that trend. The Torrey Hawks were a USHPA Chapter for nearly a decade (2007 through 2016). USHPA (Mark Forbes) refused to issue us site insurance in 2009 even though we paid for it (cash) and got a receipt. In 2016, USHPA simply refused to renew the Torrey Hawks chapter status. No reason was ever given. They just refused to process the renewal.

No one has said it better than Rick Masters in 2015:

Rick Masters wrote:People talk about the sport of hang gliding dying. It's not dying. It's being murdered. By the U$hPA.
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Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Postby spydermike » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:20 pm

I will give my opinion for what it is worth - something I rarely do on public forums. However, I see that this question is being asked on a few forums, so here goes:

1. Stop all the negativism towards USHPA, the OZ Report, and other individuals/organizations in the sport. It is a real turn off to those that want to join for camaraderie and share the passion of flight. I honestly don't know what outcome is expected from these diatribes. I have left a few hobby forums due to the politics, the bickering, and the sniping. I sincerely hope it won't be the case here. How can this come across as positive to new people researching this sport?

2. Fly and be seen flying. Introduce the sport to any person that shows interest. Spread the passion. Share on social media.

3. Reduce the cost of the sport. Develop low cost beginner products - e.g., harnesses. Provide different setups like seated and suprone for those that don't want to fly prone (for whatever reason).

4. Develop sites near major urban areas for greater exposure. Get local press coverage if at all possible.

5. Create flying clubs to share equipment and provide a no-cost to low-cost way to fly though the H2 point. Most people will not fly all on the same day - share the equipment.

6. Link training and mentor-ship to the flying club to promote retention. Get people to H3 and beyond through the club. I took a three year hiatus from the sport at H2 because I had no mentor. I know others that dropped out at that point as well. I felt just knowledgeable to be dangerous to my self and I backed off. I needed more flights to get my confidence built. My main flight site requires a mentor and I couldn't secure one, so here I am.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. Thanks for letting me post up.

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Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:26 pm

Hi Mike,

I am in general agreement with your ideas, and we should try to be positive when we can. But ...

         "there is a time for every purpose under heaven."

I was at Dockweiler with several friends yesterday, and I enjoyed posting those happy pictures (see "Dockweiler RHG Diary" topic). But I could not fly at Torrey Pines today because USHPA didn't like my 2014 testimony in a court of law involving a young woman who was injured at Torrey Pines. I haven't been able to fly at Torrey for nearly 5 years because of USHPA's retaliation. Others have similar stories of being bullied from flying in various ways.

So yes, I would very much like to post nothing but happy pictures, but the world isn't always so cooperative. For example, most people will recognize the first few phrases in this document, but far fewer remember the long list of "gripes" (in the middle) that led to our founding:

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

    For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences

    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.







Button Gwinnett
Lyman Hall
George Walton
William Hooper
Joseph Hewes
John Penn
Edward Rutledge
Thomas Heyward, Jr.
Thomas Lynch, Jr.
Arthur Middleton
John Hancock
Samuel Chase
William Paca
Thomas Stone
Charles Carroll of Carrollton
George Wythe
Richard Henry Lee
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Harrison
Thomas Nelson, Jr.
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Carter Braxton
Robert Morris
Benjamin Rush
Benjamin Franklin
John Morton
George Clymer
James Smith
George Taylor
James Wilson
George Ross
Caesar Rodney
George Read
Thomas McKean
William Floyd
Philip Livingston
Francis Lewis
Lewis Morris
Richard Stockton
John Witherspoon
Francis Hopkinson
John Hart
Abraham Clark
Josiah Bartlett
William Whipple
Samuel Adams
John Adams
Robert Treat Paine
Elbridge Gerry
Stephen Hopkins
William Ellery
Roger Sherman
Samuel Huntington
William Williams
Oliver Wolcott
Matthew Thornton



At least we try to toss in a few flying pictures every now and then. :)

Mike, I would like to see more mentoring and encouraging of flight. We do that when we can (search this site for "Little Hawk" as just one example). But there's also a time to state what's wrong and raise awareness to fix it. Ironically, the person who's quoted in my first post (Swift: "Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding") had his entire account deleted by Davis Straub on the Oz Forum!!  :shock:    It doesn't help the sport when our most creative minds are silenced.

OK, now for a little balance, please enjoy these promotional videos:





Thanks for the reminder to be more positive. We do need both!!!  :thumbup:
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Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Postby Free » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:08 pm

spydermike wrote:I will give my opinion for what it is worth - something I rarely do on public forums. However, I see that this question is being asked on a few forums, so here goes:

1. Stop all the negativism towards USHPA, the OZ Report, and other individuals/organizations in the sport. It is a real turn off to those that want to join for camaraderie and share the passion of flight. I honestly don't know what outcome is expected from these diatribes. I have left a few hobby forums due to the politics, the bickering, and the sniping. I sincerely hope it won't be the case here. How can this come across as positive to new people researching this sport?


First, let me welcome you and thank you for your comments, Mike.
Now note that my reply to you would probably have been deleted and I would likely be disappeared/deleted on the Oz Report forum by Davis Straub.
Can't use the word "you" at the Oz Report forum. If you are researching the sport, you need to know this.
There is only one forum that pilots are free to discuss any subject they choose, and that is here: https://ushawks.org/forum.
Isn't that a positive thing? Don't leave because of that.


Fly and be seen flying. Introduce the sport to any person that shows interest. Spread the passion. Share on social media.

3. Reduce the cost of the sport. Develop low cost beginner products - e.g., harnesses. Provide different setups like seated and suprone for those that don't want to fly prone (for whatever reason).

4. Develop sites near major urban areas for greater exposure. Get local press coverage if at all possible.

5. Create flying clubs to share equipment and provide a no-cost to low-cost way to fly though the H2 point. Most people will not fly all on the same day - share the equipment.


I like all your suggestions. These are along the lines of ideas I had to share before Davis Straub went all Grendel's momma on the deceased, former popular thread at the ozreport. It's all kaput there. All connections severed because of what? The lowest common denominator. Someone may be offended when they are called to account.
My new thread, which you don't like, is equal but opposite reaction to the censorship at ozreport. Davis thinks "you" is too personal. The opposite and equal reaction is to get personal.
If truth and accountability are too much for new people then maybe hang gliding may not be their best choice as a sport. It may not be the right thing for the timid. .. but that's not you because you proudly spoke up! Keep that up, here.. but not at the ozreport because you are not allowed to speak your mind there.

6. Link training and mentor-ship to the flying club to promote retention. Get people to H3 and beyond through the club. I took a three year hiatus from the sport at H2 because I had no mentor. I know others that dropped out at that point as well. I felt just knowledgeable to be dangerous to my self and I backed off. I needed more flights to get my confidence built. My main flight site requires a mentor and I couldn't secure one, so here I am.
Anyway, these are just my thoughts. Thanks for letting me post up.
Mike

I'm with you again. 'Saving the sport' is a metaphor for making new pilots.
It is you, the new pilots, we are looking for. New, younger pilots are the future of hang gliding survival. That means Wills Wing and NorthWings surviving and thriving. You are the ones we have been waiting for. Us old guys are getting tired of fighting the entrenched system of censorship and exclusion. Your informed interest is appreciated. Don't reject diatribe information because it isn't happy talk.
Complain and counter if that is your feeling. We can take it if you can dish it out.
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Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Postby spydermike » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:16 pm

Please understand that I am not complaining nor do I have a thin skin. I have not been wronged here. I am no longer USHPA. I don't read or visit OZ. I don't subscribe to forums or hang around people that I don't like. Life is too short for the negative. I got a real lesson in that in the last few years.

I am focused on positive results and go around or hurdle impediments in my way. I get more distance per unit of energy that way. That is just my style. Please, anyone who reads what I have written, do not take my post as anything other than a relative outsider's viewpoint and opinion on how to grow the sport. I will quietly work with people in my local area to do so. If we are successful, then I will report about it. Fly safe!

Cheers,
Mike
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Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:07 pm

spydermike wrote:Please understand ...


No problem at all Mike. I'm sorry if our responses sound a bit "bristley". There have been a lot of rotten things done to a lot of people in this sport, and we remember them very well.

Whenever I find myself losing sight of what's important, I look at the U.S. Hawks mission statement in our logo:

To Promote, Protect, and Serve Recreational Hang Gliding


Our five U.S. Hawks board members spent a fair amount of time discussing our mission statement to give us that clear and simple focus. I think that mission statement fits our goals perfectly. If we keep our eyes on that prize, we'll never differ very much.

Thanks for joining us Mike, and please call me any time. You're among friends here ... even when it doesn't always feel that way.    :thumbup:
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Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Postby Free » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:17 pm

spydermike wrote:Please understand that I am not complaining nor do I have a thin skin.
Good to know. If you had been reading at Ozreport you would know that all commentary is selectively moderated to protect the most sensitive snowflake that Davis wants to protect from truth and accountability. The rule of Grendel's mother is to murder all that offends her murderous snowflake..
I have not been wronged here. I am no longer USHPA. I don't read or visit OZ.

Could we hear more about why you quit USHPA and OZ?
I'm sure we could relate.

I don't subscribe to forums or hang around people that I don't like. Life is too short for the negative. I got a real lesson in that in the last few years.

Sounds like a human interest story here too but let me just say that facts and information are neither negative or positive.
They are just what they are. Don't judge who your friends are to be by facts that make you uncomfortable. Negativity is a negative thing if that is your own perspective on things and life. Facts are a positive thing to have to put things in proper perspective.
It is a negative thing to do to yourself to hide or shy away from facts and information. The more you know, the better to protect your self interest.

I am focused on positive results and go around or hurdle impediments in my way.

Can't always get positive results with insufficient information.
The information I'm providing is an act of going around or hurdling impediments in my way... and also in your way, if we are serious about the survival of the sport.

Some of Davis Straub's actions are negative to the survival of the sport. His motivations are in question. This is why I am putting him on the spot. He will not respond without pressure and that is what you may be perceiving as negativity. Pressure is a positive force applied to an object, to alter that object, perhaps in a positive direction.


Please, anyone who reads what I have written, do not take my post as anything other than a relative outsider's viewpoint and opinion on how to grow the sport. I will quietly work with people in my local area to do so. If we are successful, then I will report about it. Fly safe!
Cheers,
Mike


Your viewpoint is a welcomed perspective. Quiet, local work is a positive thing but this work can be force multiplied by getting noisy.
I've been too quiet myself, and accomplishing little to nothing. Both of us need to pick up the pace and make a little noise.
Let's help each other help the sport by figuring out how to make it easier for new pilots to enter the sport.
Davis is focused on the income of competition and that does nothing that I see as helping the new pilot.
New pilots are the future of the sport.

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Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:28 pm

Several concepts come to mind ...

Carrot and Stick    (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrot_and_stick)

Wikipedia wrote:The phrase "carrot and stick" is a metaphor for the use of a combination of reward and punishment to induce a desired behavior.


Good Cop / Bad Cop    (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_cop/bad_cop)

Wikipedia wrote:"Good cop/bad cop" routine, also called Mutt and Jeff, joint questioning or friend and foe, is a psychological tactic used in negotiation and interrogation.


They each have their place, but this one might be most applicable:

You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar.


Warren's point is a good one:

Free wrote:If you had been reading at Oz report you would know that all commentary is selectively moderated...

That's absolutely true, and it's why many of us are here.

But Mike's point is also a good one, and I believe it is sincere.

As a result, I am going to try to keep track of my own posts with a goal of posting at least two positive posts for every negative one. If the sport were in better shape I might set a higher goal (maybe 5 or 10 to 1). But given the dire state of hang gliding, I think 2 to 1 is already using some highly "rose colored" glasses.

In honor of Mike's sincere observations, I invite all members of the U.S. Hawks to set their own goals for a percentage of positive posts to the forum. Mike can hold our feet to the fire if we don't live up to our pledges.

Thanks Mike.    :salute:
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Re: Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding

Postby Free » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:47 pm

I'm glad Mike brought his perspective but just having a problem with the idea of positive or negative posts.
The issue is that prospective new pilots may be deterred by discussion that isn't happy all the time?
I don't think that is a problem. Prospective pilots should be seeking the broadest scope of all information in their quest to enter this dangerous sport.
That way there will be less surprises later. Information is not positive or negative. It is just what it is.

Incorrect information is negative if not corrected. The fact that someone may be incorrectly labeled a child molester, for instance, is a bad thing.
Lying that someone is a fine person when in fact they are bad, would seem to be a positive post on the surface but have a negative effect overall.
I say let the chips lay where they fall and let truth be the governing parameter as new people research the sport.
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