[JoeF]

HG packing (one, two, or three subpacks) with maximum length: 5 ft or less
like 4 ft, or 1 meter, or 3 ft. or less...
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The small-pack HG movement might have benefit for whom?
People who do not have cars? Too young to get a driver's license?
People who do not want to use their cars?
People who may not be able to have a driver's license for some reason?
People who choose not to use their cars?
People who do not want to drive a car?
People who want to have a very small car and a tightly packed HG.
People who choose to leave driving to public-transportation drivers?
Hang glider pilots who want to get to launch their wings by getting potential energy for the launch from one's own body actions
Hang glider pilots who want to have a HG pack set that is more welcome in hitching-a-ride scenes?
Hang glider pilots who want to put their HG pack simply in the back set of their sedan?
Hang glider pilots who want to put their HG pack simply in their clothes closet?
Hang glider pilots who want to avoid putting HGs on racks.
Hang glider pilots who have tired of racked HGs.
Hang glider pilots who do not want to deal with transporting their hang glider on top of their car, truck, van, SUV, etc.?
Hang glider pilots who want to hike more easily with their wing?
Hang glider pilots who want to be part of a new era of hang gliding that includes a sector of participation that includes hang glider packs that transport politely, safely, easily, pleasantly, acceptably with the pilot while riding on common city buses, public trains without having to ask for specialized attention?
Hang glider pilots who might want to walk and hang glide across their nation or the world or state with a less ostentatious HG pack?

Anyone seeing other factions that may benefit from a successful small-pack-HG flow are invited to spell out the matter.

[JoeF]

One exploration underway with 5-ft pack is using a single HG frame for several distinct types of hang glider. I will be showing the details of the experiments and reporting on conservative glide efforts. Invest in one rigid frame; have packs of parts that use that frame for one HG type; take apart that HG type and then use parts for another HG type; take that type apart with same frame up and don parts to get a third HG type. Etc. All in one flight day or a different type HG on different days!

There will be more than four types eventually; all resultant HG types will be using the same frame investment; call the frame a base experimental frame (BEF).
The first four types to show on the same BEF:
SS without ribs
SS with curved ribs
DS with closed LE with ribs
DS with ram-air via destruction of a PG wing and marrying the ram-air sail segments to the HG frame involved; this will net a framed HG while disappearing the PG. Could this be a seed for getting a flight system that could tease the cancellation of much of the PG scene? Time will tell ...

Multiply that four by two by having the experiments with or without a High Hat system. Eight experiments.
Then again, multiply by two again with "with or without winglets" for 16 experiments.
Etc. Keep the BEF constant and dress that frame with experimental parts. Observe; keep a journal of results and impressions. Fun. Hundreds of experiments may be made using the same one BEF. Hopefully some satisfactory arrangements will be discovered.

[JoeF]

Today a PG was de-lined and tip-trimmed; 28 cells were kept. The salvaged lines will be used in experimental AWES (airborne wind energy systems). The two tips cut off will be formed into a wing for an AWES (airborne wind energy system).   The central section of the wing will be mounted to a BEF (base experimental frame for HG experiments).  Span will be approximately 28 feet. The central chord is approximately 9 ft on the lower surface; the tip chord will be approximately 7 ft.  The effective projected sail area of the double-surfaced ram-air-sailed framed HG wing will be about 220 sq. ft. The experimenting HG pilot will be about 185-lb naked weight. The HG pack will fit the 5-ft or less packing in harmony with this topic thread in the US Hawks forum. 

The PG asset had already been decommissioned by a power-paraglider pilot. The hack-mod sail will have double duty; aim is for HG at times and as a non-framed AWES wing.  Another duty to be explored for the sail will be as a beach shader and a beach momentary privacy closet.  The nylon ripstop cloth is vulnerable to cuts, punctures, and tears despite the "ripstop" aspect of the fabric.

The BEF sweep will be set to match the resultant salvaged sail. The sail will be attached to the BEF in various experimental ways for test glides. Results of the various experimental glides with this HG sail will be reported in this topic thread. One PG out and one HG in

Some photos of today's session: 

WingBeforeModCut.jpg (59.08 KiB) Viewed 1320 times

DeLiningSession.jpg (82.65 KiB) Viewed 1320 times

DeLiningSessionLivRoom.jpg (70.61 KiB) Viewed 1320 times

SampleBridleCascadeJoinForUnJoining.jpg (59.09 KiB) Viewed 1320 times

OrgSalvagedLines.jpg (41.73 KiB) Viewed 1320 times

SalvagingLines.jpg (55.48 KiB) Viewed 1320 times

DSramAir220forBEFexpPack5orless.jpg (94.55 KiB) Viewed 1320 times

Looking at sail folded in half and then a corner unfolded. White is lower sail; red is upper sail. Ram-air airfoil. Hats off to Domina Jalbert!

HGwing28byAve8.jpg (91.2 KiB) Viewed 1320 times

[Chris McKeon]

When John comes up here, and We are working on My One Fifty Eight. I want to ASK Him about the concept of Short Packing My Predator. I just think that it would be so cool to be able to Short Pack My Predator and then hike to the nearest road, Yea Baby! BECAUSE THEY way I see it. I have a tendency to push the Ceal. I do not know how, or why I have been able to be able to scratch My way up, then continue on MNy way. But even though I have never sunk-out in No Man's Land. I see it as a numbers Game. On an XC Flight someday I will land a few Miles from a road. Being able to Short-Pack My Predator. Then to be able to begin hiking My Glider to a road would be cool. I am sure You Guys will hear from Me again after John has come My way.

Good By Chris Mckeon: 9258-497-1059

[JoeF]

BEF (base experimental frame) ?
There more than one type of BEF that serves the small-packet (less than 5ft) movement.
Exploring that open invitation:
Two-spar per side wing and keel, king post(s), queen posts
Bowsprit and spar on each side wing
Bow spar full-span bow spar, king post, queenposts
Cantilever full-span,
Side flying struts mod to some of the above
Etc. All are welcome to describe a BEF that seems promising to them.

Then upon a BEF of choice, explore various sails, ribs, winglets, controls, High Hats, tails, appliques, lines, material choices,

To continue having fun, avoid injuring one's body, eyes, lungs, ... Avoid hurting others. Glide only only when outcomes will be good for everyone. Manage risks well.
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One of my experiment sets on one type of BEF will be exploring floating stuffed camber-forming items within taut-held two-surfaces. Have the BEF frame two sails: upper and lower. Then simply stuff camber-forming items inside the two sails. Do such with variations of the BEF sweep setting. And the stuffing objects may be uniform in camber results or non-uniform in camber results. Scores of experiments in this setting are possible. An underlying aim would persist in the experiments: pack in 5 ft or less per topic of this discussion thread. The material choice for the sails could be changed; and the upper sail may different in material than the lower sail; or be the same. The two sails may be integrated as a sock; a sock for left wing and sock for right wing. There will be results for each altered experiment; those results may be shared in this discussion thread by anyone.

Possible camber-forming stuffings to be floated in the squeeze with or without connectors (string or other connectors):
coiled Mylar sheet ___ Or rolled film with station rings inside the rolled film...
toy balloons, long or short.
long inflated low-cost polyethylene tube that will lose air.
long TPU-bladder cased tube with low PSI.
open-celled polyurethane foam forms
boom inflatable sticks. Bambams. Thundersticks. makdae pungseon (lit. 'hard-hitting balloons')
Explore an at-tip thunderstick being inflated variably by the pilot at will during gliding. Or change inflation between bunny glide efforts to see what results. Lot of white bang-bang sticks are on there way for some experiments in HG.
accordion line of balsa wood
triangle prism of paper
ping-pong balls, perhaps strung together for a span-wise exploration. Small camber!
lightening-holed curtain slats
rings Perhaps hoops strung together and anchored spanwise and chordwise by string; perhaps a set of tapered-diameter hoops that allow neat packing. During pack the tapered hoops seat inside one another for a flattish compact efficient deal.
airfoil rib segment

Note that items stuffed might be strung together for various reasons. Position keeping? Pulling the line of stuffings into the squeeze?
What will be pros and cons of each choice?
What will be the changes in gliding for each choice?
How will a choice pack? Cost? Longevity?
How will stuffed items compare with standard airfoil ribbing tactics?

For instance: Stuff 20 toy balloons; anchor positions of the toy balloons with strings to the leading-edge spar; or the string might be replaced with a small-diameter tiny hose to be used for inflating the balloons. Notice the change in gliding experience as the toy balloons lose air during a day's experimental gliding session.

BalloonStuffingForCamberExperiments001.jpg (32.51 KiB) Viewed 1301 times

[JoeF]

cheeringsticks.jpg (25.44 KiB) Viewed 1292 times

Experiments with a BEF and two taut sails between two spars per sided wing using bang-bang inflated sticks as stuffers sandwiched between the two sails (perhaps socked onto the two spars) will be described in part herein on this note.
Two different tweaks of the BEF involved: 1. parallel two spars 2. non- two spars. For 1. a sock will be made that is constant in width. For 2. a sock for each sided wing will be made to fit the taper in chord. Each orientation will receive a set of experiments using bang-bang inflatable sticks. Socks might need to start less taut in some experiments. Aim behind the experiments is to reach viable gliders that stay within the small pack limits to fit the topic of this topic thread.

Experimenters are invited to describe their results.

Here are some of the experiments by varying the stick arrangements in the space between the taut surfaces of the socks:
Stuff two per chord.
Stuff long spanwise one.
Stuff two spanwise next to each other. 
Stuff them perpendicular at tip only to see what happens. 
Stuff them in accordion fashion to see what happens. 
Stuff them with empty spaces between the stuffed sticks. 
Stuff them chordwise densely and also with spaces between them. 
Stuff them spanwise at various chord stations. 
Tie three together to form a triangle cross-section; call such a "pyramid of sticks" or just "pyramids."
Try with base on lower sail. Try with base at upper sail.
This will be higher camber than if just one stick was used. 
Tie 6 sticks in a pyramid cross-section for even higher camber. Try both ways: base down: base up. 
This will be even higher than one or two layers of bang-bang sticks. Each format will form a different airfoil.    Try taper spanwise: 6, 6, 6, 3, 3,3, 1,1,1.   Etc. Pyramids of 6 sticks, then 3 sticks, then one stick.  String hoop the stacks to make the pyramids.  Many variations on this theme are possible.

bangbangsticksDSwingstuffers.jpg (34.96 KiB) Viewed 1295 times

[JoeF]

[iref=][/iref]At waking today on October 12:
The following stems from an energy that tends to avoid having hard ribs connected to the spars while also, perhaps having less mass, ease of assembly, and sometimes tighter packs for the HG while, perhaps, doing such at lower building costs.

Four spaces to explore on the theme of "stuffing the bird" to get thick DS low-mass airfoils that may serve the tiny-packed framed HG movement:

View is chord section of wing.

FourStuffingMeans.jpg (29.52 KiB) Viewed 1272 times

1. Sail of single layer where simple forms are set in various ways on top of the single layer. E.g. Have a strip of loop webbing on the single layer; then some simple form, say a hot-wire-shaped compressive open-celled polyurethane foam could be having a strip of hook webbing. Set the form on top to get the hook-and-loop stay. Presto, the airfoil has changed. Experiment with various appliques for airfoil explorations. Aim: stay in tiny-pack spirit.

2. Sail sock of two layers riding freely on a BEF of two spars per side wing. Such was in prior post. Here stuffing results in bulges up and down.

3. Sail sock of two layers with a locking of lower layer in taut format while upper layer is initially not-so-taut. There may be some effective ways to achieve such conditions, but it looms already as a challenge. Here stuffing results in bulging more easily on top and less on bottom.

4. Three-layers: lower two layers form taut sock between spar runs; sewn to the that sock would be a top layer of sail that would be slightly larger than the width of the base sock and thus not taut until stuffing occurs inside the cavity between the top layer and the base taut sock. Using this three-layers may result in better airfoils from the "stuffing-and-floating, but string-anchored" technology. The looseness of the top layer could be altered to receive various stuffings to form various airfoils for the HG. The base sock could be of a fully different material than the third top layer of the sail arrangement. There are many schemes on getting the stuffing done. Seek happy days!

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[JoeF]

[ ] And the tensioned integrated nested ring forms are hitting high notes in my stuffing energies; some expansive drawings are in the works on this matter, also for sharing.

Have a set of hoops, say of circular form or of some other closed-loop form. Have those hoops be of telescopic relation where say 20 hoops lie flat on a table almost as a dinner plate, the thickness of the nested telescopic stack limited to the width of the hoop, say 1/4 inch thick; or say 1/16 inch fiberglass pultruded "wire", or other...; all the 20 hoops fit in that first largest hoop. Have the hoops string connected, one another in a serial fashion, that is, first hoop connects to second hoop; second hoop connects by string to the third hoop, etc. If one held the top hoop and let the other connected hoops be pulled by gravity, then one has a long tension tower of stationed hoops. Stations are determined by the length of string from one hoop to the next hoop.

The above long towers may be anchored at the HG keel and HG tip. And such may be the "stuffing" in the inner space of sail sock. and the tensioned tower may be anchored chordwise by a set of strings from the side of the towers to the LE spar of the HG. However, if same diameter hoops were stacked, then such could form a kind of case to hold packed beams of the tiny-packed HG. Etc.

The tiny packing of such tensional towers may be as packing a dinner plate. If the hoop set were of non-telescopic relation, the the calculus of packing would be very different, if the hoops were packed as hoops; then the pack would be like packing 20 plates. However, if hoops were packed unhooped, but as a flat bar or flat wire, then one wins back tiny-pack deal, but assembly of the hoop from straight form means assembling 20 hoops from stored sticks or segments; such would be doable and is an option.
Tease:





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The cousin competing stuffer is the coilable flat plates that go from flat segments or subcoils to rolled tube segments.String anchoring the tube or tube segments to the LE in order to have the stuffed tube segments keep its chordwise position. Pack of this could be in subcoils from segments or could be with a flat stack of rollable segments.

Another cousin: String loops hold arched film segments.

StringLoopKeptArchFromFlatRectangles.jpg (50.26 KiB) Viewed 1270 times

StufferInSock004.jpg (12.19 KiB) Viewed 1270 times

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[JoeF]

Almost within the limit length for this topic thread is a design effort by Pere H. Casellas
http://www.laboratoridenvol.com/project ... ex.en.html

1.7 m is approximately 5.6 feet.

Someone may calculate, draw, and build a 5-ft-or-less mod of Pere's offer for conservative glide testing.
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The BEF probably involved in Pere's offer:

BEF001a.jpg (42.28 KiB) Viewed 1255 times

Note: The drawing or symbol for any BEF is not intended to restrict angles or the position of the KP-QP (kingpost-queenpost) relative to a spreader-beam assembly. The art of forming BEF symbols is an ongoing matter. BEF drawings are invited from anyone in the world. A BEF for HGs may suggest a direction of using any particular frame as a platform for experimental mods generally using such BEF. Scores of BEFs portend opportunities for much future HG experimentations.

[Chris McKeon]

I am amazed that it seems to be only me Who has shown interest in being able to Short-Pack My glider down, then put the short Packed Glider on My back. Then to be able to pack My Glider to the nearest Road. I just do not get the Silence? Well when John comes up here to do an IRAN on My Predator, I will be talking to him about being able to put on My Predator, Back-Back.