[JoeF]

Chris, will the Predator be the "Predator" following a mod that disturbs its beams, sails, etc.? Having the very many changes to obtain a tiny pack will, I guess, substantially alter what you may experience with the mod; my guess is that the mod will be quite different from the Predator 158 you have known. Mass and mass distribution will play; connectors, couplers, fasteners, etc. will change. Aeroelastic things will change. Cutting up your present Predator 158 to get tiny packing will not be a reversible action to get back the original. The changes will result in an uncertified machine. To test the mod for safe flying could be a huge project. Any new build faces the testing challenges.

[JoeF]

Wing stuffers' positions may be set by a string to the leading edge (LE) in some HGs. Also, consider having the position-keeping string be continued to the (TE) trailing edge or nearly so. Between flights a stuffer could be pulled forward or rearward. Results are invited to be described by anyone. Wing stuffers may be designed to fit special purposes.

StufferInSock004controlledposition.jpg (45.37 KiB) Viewed 582 times

Variable camber ...

[JoeF]

Symbols for a BEF allow instances of use to vary angles and position of KP-QP. Indicated frame members may be among many choices.
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BEF001

With kingpost.

BEF001.jpg (15.39 KiB) Viewed 571 times

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BEF001a

Without kingpost.

BEF001a.jpg (39.89 KiB) Viewed 572 times

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BEF002

BEF002.jpg (12.4 KiB) Viewed 580 times

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BEF003

BEF003.jpg (6.43 KiB) Viewed 580 times

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BEF003a

This has no KPs, but only QPs.

BEF003a.jpg (5.74 KiB) Viewed 578 times

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BEF004.jpg (12.67 KiB) Viewed 578 times

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BEF005

BEF005.jpg (30.53 KiB) Viewed 576 times

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Anyone may post a BEF or a suggestion for one or more.
BEF show frame elements and relative joins. A HG would be analyzed to be an expression of some BEF, perhaps a BEF that has not yet been published in the forum. Ultimate count of BEFs published is unknown. To the moment seven BEFs have been published (one of which was a named BEF003a indicating a cousin deal, a dropping of KPs and leaving only QPs.
==============================================
There is no guarantee that any particular BEF has been used for any satisfactory built-and-flown hang glider. Recall that a BEF may be expressed within many HGs despite the choices of angles, sails, lines, control lines, relative position of frame joins, additions or appliques, High Hats, Safe-Splats, wing-sail stuffers, wing-sail appliques, winglets, rudders, tails, choices of material specifications for beams or any part. However, find a satisfactory HG and wonder what BEF is playing in that HG; if no publish BEF lives in the HG, then consider forming a BEF for that HG and publish that BEF in US Hawks forum.

[Chris McKeon]

Joe, My Predator has been such an Awesome Glider. Look for here I am sitting here talking about the Predator's Virtues. I truly do not know why the Predator is such an incredible Glider. I really do not know what part of the Gliders Design makes the Glider such an Awesome Glider that a Pilot would like to be Flying XC. I mean, I believe that I have wrote this before; If you have landed, Your XC Flight is over. But there is an exception to this. I have landed before up on top of say the Sierra Mountains. Then an Hour or two later I have Re-Launched, to continue My XC route. But I would probably not risk landing another Glider at such a High Altitude landing. I realize that I am lavishing Praise on a oh Glider that was designed 26 Years ago. But I am literally sitting on the edge of My Seat in anticipation of once again Flying My 158 Predator.

Guys You know I really do feel that Flying I now have a Physical advantage, regarding when I last Flew My Predator. I weighed Two Hundred Ninety Eight Pounds the last time I Flew My Predator Twelve and a Half Years ago. Currently I have been as low as One Hundred Ninety Five Pounds. But in the last Month My weight climbed to above Two Hundred. My goal is to Weigh 175 Pounds. So if I do indeed get to where I weigh One Hundred Seventy Five Pounds. This Six Foot Three and Three Quarter Inch tall Man, will not be overweight.

Well thank You Guys for putting up with My Brain Damaged Blatterings. I can hear it right now in My Head. I will have some friend of Mine see Me for the First time since when I pounded. My friend will say; You have lost over a hundred Pounds, How dids You do it? I will Reply; It was easy, I went on the Pound Diet.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Joe, My Predator has been such an Awesome Glider. Look for here I am sitting here talking about the Predator's Virtues.
  . . .
Well thank You Guys for putting up with My Brain Damaged Blatterings.

We are happy to hear from you Chris. Your recovery and love of flight are both inspirational. But it's helpful for all readers when topics stay on topic. Discussions do wander, and that's the nature of human beings, so we very rarely take the heavy-handed approach of moving posts. You can help a lot by being sure that what you want to say fits the topic where you're posting.

The great thing is that we can all start our own topics to discuss whatever we want. This topic is about Joe's goal of designing a hang glider that packs down to 5 feet or less. That's quite a challenge, and I'm sure Joe welcomes ideas on that topic.

My job (thankless as it is) is to try to ensure that everyone gets to talk about whatever they want to talk about and that everyone gets to read about whatever they want to read about ... all without too many distractions (like this one).

Sorry for the interruption.

[Chris McKeon]

When I Fly, I do not want My Day to End and the Number Five.

OK; here I am back on topic. I just think that being able to break down My Predator to 5' or less would be oh so Cool. That way OI could feel more confident in knowing that if I were to Land out a couple of miles from a roade. By the way I am amazed by the fact that I have never Sunk and lansded out miles away from the nearest Road, well knowing that I could simply Shor-Pack My Predator. Then Put the Predator up onto My Back and then Hike to a Road. This would be so Cool. But one point was brought up. Setting My Predator frame would affect how MY Wing would Perform. Well being that The Predator's Performance capabilities are as cl;oswe to being optimized. I am concerned that making My wing a Wing that could be shortpacked might adversely affect My Beloved Predators great Performance. I definitely want to run r=this concept By John.

Truly do not know how well after 26 Years that a Predators Performance Capability will stack-up against the Current crop of Toplss Gliders. But I did know how well My Predator did compared to the Topless Gliders of Wills Wing, Laminar, Moyes, of Twelve and a Half Years ago. There is no Question. When it comes down to a High Performance Glider to stay in the Air, The Predator Rocks! We all know that after You have to land, Your Day is done.

Fivefeet, Yes Five I like the number Five.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Fivefeet, Yes Five I like the number Five.

So does Joe.    Have you noticed his "avatar"?

Joe_Five_Faust.png (20.41 KiB) Viewed 553 times

Joe is USHGA #5, USHPA #5, US Hawks #5, Mo Hawks #5, and probably more other 5's than we might imagine.

So the number "5" is ... on topic!!

[JoeF]

===
"TCF" :: triangle control frame
BEF006a

TCF has beam as base element.

BEF006a.jpg (9.47 KiB) Viewed 551 times

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BEF006b

TCF has only tensed cord as base, not a beam.

BEF006b.jpg (12.98 KiB) Viewed 551 times

=====================================
BEF007a and BEF007b
The symbol for BEF700a or BEF700b shows an oval;
but in practice iterations of experiment could use
any ellipse where the circle could be an instance of an oval.
The frame part: the suggestive ring of the symbols.

BEF007ab.jpg (26.57 KiB) Viewed 546 times

===============
Tease filler:

Tease:
Emanuel Swedenborg and his flying machine
https://www.onverticality.com/blog/eman ... org-glider
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedenbor ... ng_Machine
Tease:
Flying disk, flying ring, Frisbee, flying ring, webbed ring glider, double-surface stuffed ring hang glider, hang glider glory ring by WaterhouseGlassDesign, Aerobie Sprint Ring, 1934 Nemeth Parasol, flying saucer, Dehn Ring Wing

A target is to use some BEF in a clothed hang glider that packs politely with subpacks less than 5-ft in length.

[JoeF]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_wing
https://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/lee- ... lider.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferris_wheel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Roller_(Ferris_wheel)

=======================================
Mulling DS HG using BEF007b and stuffer elements. The frame ring: could it be of segments of CFRP? Or splinted inflated torus ring? Judicious rigging could give reflex for pitch stability. Note that there is opportunity for captive-arch mechanics plus captive-ring rigging via Kp-Qp. Both annular and ring formats may be explored. Pilot could hang below the wing in either formats. Aim is to have a pleasant resulting empty weight while having a tiny pack fitting this topic's limits.

FlyingPizza.jpg (55.82 KiB) Viewed 540 times

==================

captive ring

highrollerferriswheel.jpg (83.32 KiB) Viewed 540 times

[JoeF]

BEF010ab
The abstract drawing for the BEF010ab includes stylized skyview and a front view. Recall that the BEF symbols allow angle and length variation in real material instantiation; line rigging is not placed in BEF symbols. And a plethora of options to "dress" a BEF remain to have multiple experimental hang gliders. The target is to dress a BEF and have the frame parts so that a handy tiny pack occurs where maximum length is 5 ft or less.

BEF010ab specializes in stabilizing hoops via stay lines to a beam askew from the hoop "plane", perhaps perpendicular to the hoop "plane" but not necessarily perpendicular. The"plane" is in quotation marks because it is possible to rig and stay a hoop without resulting in a geometric plane. The interior of the hoop would be filled with various options, not necessarily filling all the interior space. And the filling of the hoop interior space could be with single sail or double sail. Dressing a BEF could include winglets, High Hats, Safe-Splats, control devices, stuffers, or more. Finally, the BEF010ab symbol show rings that look circular; instantiations of BEF010ab may distort the hoop to non-circular forms.

The "b" does not have a base frame beam for TCF; rather the "base" would be a cord or cable, perhaps with a thickening as needed; or BEF010b might have control queenpost hard framed to the wing frame.

BEF010ab.jpg (24.99 KiB) Viewed 530 times

=============== Notice that BEF010ab is quite different from BEF007.

The Beetle is interesting; Percy Pilcher had more than one version of hang glider. The Beetle has distinct beams for empennage, and thus might not be an instantiation of BEF010; we seek a BEF symbol for such as the Beetle.

This not using BEF010

Pilcher_Beetle.jpeg (127.68 KiB) Viewed 530 times

================
But the following image comes close to being with the abstract BEF010 but not exactly, probably because the shown seems to be a dynamic ornithopter rather than a hang glider; and there are beams way different from TCF.

https://www.printcollection.com/files/1 ... rande.jpeg

=========================
And the three patents of Watson F. Quinby do not seem to use BEF010; but his flying machines are fun to study.
See: https://www.onverticality.com/blog/w-f- ... g-machines
==========================
A teasing of BEF007 might be mined from:
https://longstreet.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83542d51e69e20240a5004c30200b-pi