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Sails for Hang Gliders ... aspects

Postby JoeF » Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:26 am

Sail Materials and Sail Aspects for Hang Gliders
This topic invites the study and discussion of materials for dressing hang glider frames in order to effect gliding and soaring in the atmosphere of Earth.
======================= =============
There are commercially available materials (fibers, films, fabrics, textiles) and materials found in trash or in natural surrounding
:arrow: that are finished HG sails ready for dressing a known HG frame (e.g. buying a replacement sail for production HG).
:arrow: that may be directly used without modification to make HG sails in one's own loft or at the loft of a sailmaker of one's choosing.
:arrow: that may be modified by commercial agents for customers.
:arrow: that may be modified post purchasing or post gathering. One might buy fibers and build up one's own sail from the fibers. One might "purchase" via the purchasing tactic of salvaging from trash some materials and build up a HG sail. Trash Technology. Harvesting.

Finished HG sails potentially are of myriad qualities.
The sail might be made of a net-based tree-leaf aggregate; mount dried leaves to a large-mesh net; dress a HG frame with such and glide.
The sail might be a laminate of several materials.
The sail might be composed of multiple patches where not all the patches are of the same material.

The sail might be adequate for one flight session, not two. Or the sail might be good for daily flying for 10 years. Durability, UV resistance, wearing qualities, etc. will make a difference on how much use time may be had from a given sail. Facing many parameters sails that are satisfactory to pilots may vary wildly as to material specifications. Perhaps a pilot wants a one-flight sail to be used in a movie stunt where the sail will fail knowingly at certain speed-angle-of-attack resulting in the need to use a rescue chute or need to bail out into water from low altitude sail failure designed to occur. Or perhaps a pilot intends the sail to be wet by salt water daily for a flight season because of special operations.

There might be described a most popular set of requirements desired by a pilot group. Sailmakers and owners would aim for material specifications that would serve that faction of pilots. What are some distinct factions of HG pilots and what kind of sails does each faction want? The faction of HG pilots that want to fly once with a homemade hang glider built without spending over $100 may seek sails that fit such budget. The faction of HG pilots that want to compete in speed gliding likely to face firm turbulence will seek sails of sturdy specifications.

There is a host of materials that have historically been used in HGs. Such materials may be described in this topic thread by anyone. There are futuristic materials likely to arrive in some future year; those may be studied and discussed in this topic thread.

There are sail materials used by contemporary hang glider manufacturers. Those materials may be carefully described and discussed. Availabilities? Replacements? Types? Costs? Repair methods? Care? User comments? Longevity? Accidents? Damage causes? How to clean? What to avoid? How to inspect?

Aspects of sail materials are plenty. Each aspect may be studied and discussed. What are many aspects of HG sails. No one will ever produce a list of all the aspects of sails; there may always be an aspect that any given list has missed noting. We do not have infinite time on Earth to discuss such unending aspects; we might seek to discuss what seems important to someone in the HG community. That is, most aspects of sail materials will never be discussed on Earth; we will see what aspects will actually arrive in the discussion thread. E.g., an aspect of commercial sails: "disclaimer" aspect. Patterns? How to make? How to cut?
How to sew, fuse, glue, weld? When to discard and how to recycle, reuse? How to handle HG sails? How to store HG sails? What surface treatments to avoid or use on HG sails? Moisture and sails? Fog and sails? Transporting HGs to protect HG sails? What questions rise up about HG sails in various HG communities? What has been discussed about HG sails? What is the literature regarding HG sails? What are the various ways to put a HG sail onto a HG frame?
===============================
Some teasing starters:
Leaves: http://www.grumpyoldgi?ts.org/johnleaf.htm
High end: https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/sails/materials
Manual comments about sails, e.g.: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/ ... s-wing-inc

We have in our forum scattered about many comments about HG sails; those might be sifted for gems to be developed in this present topic run.

Some questions:
:?: Will there be a successful hang glider sailed using spider silk as a sail. We know some spiders have put some webs on some HG sails. A HG sail made with spider silk could be very very expensive to make. Story and video:
https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/golden-spider-silk Caution: There are products called "spider silk" that are not real silk or fiber from real spiders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_silk Note that some spiders have done hang gliding using their own spider silk as their wings: kiting spiders glide and soar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballooning_(spider)
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Re: Sails for Hang Gliders ... aspects

Postby Craig Muhonen » Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:45 pm

Flying music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdeY5v52h1g


cool video, three hours work. this is for frank
you could make a mold for "tailfeathers" and "wing tip" feathers, a hang glider with feathers hmm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_5cPQu47Wc


a safer way to fly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2lJSR61xZw
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Re: Sails for Hang Gliders ... aspects

Postby JoeF » Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:36 pm

Fun video selects, Craig!
Toward a sail of feathers as brought up by you in above post:
KaiMartin shared this video select in March of 2018 in forum, but I repeat it now regarding "feathered" sail for HG potential:
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Re: Sails for Hang Gliders ... aspects

Postby Craig Muhonen » Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:49 pm

Have to play this one again, wow.


What about a few controllable feathers just on the wing tips of a hang glider.
The tail feathers suited to the back of the pod.
Totally packable or just ware them . A tailfeather hat. ha..
"Robot Battens" at your demand.

David Cronk's first gliders had wing tip devices way back.
"It does make for flatter turns" and more control in landing".


C:+o)
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Re: Sails for Hang Gliders ... aspects

Postby JoeF » Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:29 pm

Consider a sail sock for each sided wing in a HG. Consider having the sock somewhat loose on the top section of the designed sock. Slip the sock over the frame on one side of the glider. Connect the two socks together at the keel, say. Then notice that the top sail is ready for designed stuffing. Explore the discussion thread in our forum about stuffings: Stuffings for DS Hang Glider Sails Thousands, at least, ways of stuffing a HG wing are possible; but life may be too short to physically explore very many. Report your stuffings.

Sails may hold pockets small and large. DS sails may have pockets on the exterior or interior of either the top sail or bottom sail. See the same stuffings topic for what one might put in the pockets. Watch one's gross flying weight and mechanical/aerodynamic centers whenever placing masses in a HG system. Keep things safe! How to put pockets on the sail surfaces? Sew, fuse, glue, tie, hook-and-loop, ... ? Materials for the pockets? Pocket purposes? Will a given pocket affect the sail's aerodynamic shape?

Glow-in-the-dark sails?
Most of us are not supposed to be flying in the dark of night. But why not glow when parked as night falls? The treatment for the glow could follow special design or simply cover all surfaces. In special circumstances the glow might be needed. And maybe glow inside a darkened auditorium. Post OEM sail treatment for glow-in-the-dark?

Sails that may double as boat-sailing sails either in a hang-glider-boat-sailing system or in separated activities. Consider a hang glier framing that might have keel made of two parallel members; maybe anticipate that one would have two boating sails, one from each sided wing of the HG. Figure out the hull for water flotation that would hold one or two the HG's framed sails. Some talk in the sailboat world is hereon linked.

HG sails that do not burn easily? What might be the reason to invest in a HG sail that would not burn easily? Duty flights in a fire-fighting circumstance? Note: recreational pilots are to land when area has ground-fire operations amiss. Flights in active volcano space-duty or research, perhaps? Unstoppable smoking pilot? Rash of vandalism by fire? Stunt flying where fire is used onbosard judiciously? What else?

Off-the-shelf nets where the mesh is filled in various ways? Explore the nets; explore how one might fill the mesh with a secondary material. Attach chicken feathers to a net to get a HG sail? Attach trashed plastic film to a quality net to get a workable HG sail?

Smart HG sails? ... as in intelligent: Maybe built-in AI? Reactive wing morphing? Resultant warnings? Multiple mini cameras capturing scenes, HG parts, ... HG self-reports about the conditions of parts? What else? Have the sail be a display of images, videos, messages: flying billboard?

Solar-energy HG sails? These sails might charge onboard batteries for a host of reasons. Maybe use the energy to warm a high-altitude pilot. Maybe use the energy to charge batteries stored inside the Queen posts; use the energy to drive devices in the HG system. Power an electric thrust-giving motor-propeller to be used for emergencies during commercial hang glider flying duties? Power a HG-sail-based advertising display.
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Re: Sails for Hang Gliders ... aspects

Postby Craig Muhonen » Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:13 pm

They have been showing us how to do it since day one
Multiple options for coordinated turns.

Joe said;
Smart HG sails? ... as in intelligent: Maybe built-in AI? Reactive wing morphing? Resultant warnings? Multiple mini cameras capturing scenes, HG parts, ... HG self-reports about the conditions of parts? What else? Have the sail be a display of images, videos, messages: flying billboard? Solar-energy HG sails?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLmZan64Ql8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A51oJiE66YA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4wUhh_xgSQ


Does the leading edge of a hang glider have to be straight,
and could a light weight packed hang glider have multi foldable wings?
a "Frigate Glider", how elegant
my cat's brain "sleeps awake"


four part leading edge 1.png
four part leading edge 1.png (54.09 KiB) Viewed 1152 times

Four part leading edge.png
Four part leading edge.png (239.12 KiB) Viewed 1152 times


Thanks Joe for your dedication and this, the best "music" video I've ever seen on flight.
Your data base is immense, your eminence. ha...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZbafmwL3Rs


Perr-ozzing around I found this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbk8zSRCytA



C:+o)
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Re: Sails for Hang Gliders ... aspects

Postby JoeF » Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:43 pm

Super enjoying your selects and notes, Craig!
Now I know why I awaken from sleep with HG ideas! Only half my brain is sleeping; the other half is hang gliding. :)
A synergistic select:


HG-sail experimentation will go on ..
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Re: Sails for Hang Gliders ... aspects

Postby JoeF » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:32 am

Trash Technology for some Hang Glider Sails
=====================================
With quality net of good-sized mesh consider upcycling trash to cover the net's open spaces. Super rip-stop. Lose some little patches and just repair that little patch. Say a Dyneema-string net forms the quality base of the sail. Then cover each open space with films obtained from trash. Such tactic might bring on very low mass sails to reduce tote mass and flying mass. Domina Jalbert was an early advocate of making kite sail material by having a net of lines while filling the interstices with low-mass material. Now there is a huge use of ripstop nylon and ripstop polyester fabrics. But the hybrid of fiber net with film fillings is a flow used in top commercial hang glider manufacturing as they use laminates that are just that: fiber nets laminated to film to fill open spaces of a matrix of lines. For a certain combination of net and film, there may be optimal choices for te net for a specific hang glider. When going for low mass and tiny pack, then the choices would be modified.
Edging for such nets may receive special design cares; sometimes edges of the filled net would be at a spar.




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Re: Sails for Hang Gliders ... aspects

Postby Craig Muhonen » Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:53 pm

Joe, What IF you could make the wing tips robotic, in some sort of manner and have them connected wirelessly to the pilots helmet or control bar? "solar" sails and technology, might as well make truly, "Modern Hang Gliders" here in 2022
click in, "robotic worms", and the technology could be adapted to the batons.

it is a flexible wing.

H0
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Re: Sails for Hang Gliders ... aspects

Postby JoeF » Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:05 pm

LaminateSailSquareAndOrthogonal.jpg
LaminateSailSquareAndOrthogonal.jpg (43.23 KiB) Viewed 967 times
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NonSquareAndOrthogonal.jpg
NonSquareAndOrthogonal.jpg (19.83 KiB) Viewed 967 times
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