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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:24 am

Tiny packing tiny-packed HG for recreational hang gliding at one or a few regularly-visited sites might be enhanced by storing part or all of the HG at or near the flying site, or at some place between the flying site and the last point of disembarking from a train, plane, car, or bus. Maybe tote from home only technical or/and high-cost parts of the HG while storing at or near flight sight remaining parts of the HG. That is, maybe split the deal: carry from home some of the HG, and securely store the remainder of the HG somewhat near the flight site. Investigating this split-deal concept is the topic of this present post.

Faux fence? Perhaps the parts of a fence could be the segments of a spar that uses couplers. Lift the fence slats and place them in technical couplers. Have the spar segment be in compression via HG rigging/sail forces as is commonly natural. The couplers could be simple tubes with a fixed interior center wall that butts ends of two faux-fence slats. Presto: spar. Carry the technical couplers from home and use the faux-fence slats to build up the HG spar. Someone could destroy or take the faux fence; that is a downside of this matter. :( Impolite vandalism reduces options or put the options into risk. An alteration of this is to use the extant fence at a site as a base for attaching HG-spar segments. Does the flying site have extant structures that could hide spar segments? Poles, fences, bushes, trees, etc. Explore where spar segments might be hidden at the flying site. Hide more spar segments than needed in case some spar segments are taken by people or animals.

Artificial Intelligence at ChatGPT responded to my question wrote:How to use fence slats for hang glider spar segments?

Using fence slats for hang glider spar segments is not recommended, as fence slats are not designed or tested for use in aerospace applications and may not have the necessary strength and durability to safely support the weight and forces involved in hang gliding.

Hang glider spars are typically made of lightweight, high-strength materials such as aluminum alloy, carbon fiber, or fiberglass, which are carefully engineered and tested to meet the specific requirements of hang glider design and performance. The use of non-standard materials, such as fence slats, could compromise the safety and performance of the hang glider.

If you are interested in building your own hang glider, it is important to follow established design and construction guidelines, which typically require the use of tested and approved materials for all components of the glider, including the spars. These guidelines may vary depending on the specific design and intended use of the hang glider, so it is important to consult with experienced builders and designers for guidance and advice.


===================
Is there a storage rental opportunity at the far end of a car or bus or train trip where HG (or parts) may be stored? Trekking cart the last leg of travel with the stored parts. Will a resident at the far end of travel rent a storage box or cart with parts? If so, then tote from home only special parts and gear.
===================
We have a wide spectrum of performance vision from very conservative Dockweiler to all-weather Alps high-altitude soaring. Know conditions and stay within safe limits for design and conduct!

Of course, the fence slats I am proposing would be engineered to handle the needs of a desired HG. :salute:

==============================
Concentrate on the beams. Aim to have the beams somehow stored at the aft end of a plane, bus, or train trip. Then fetch the stored parts and wheel cart all in the final walking leg of the trip. What method of storage might be available, designed, constructed, used? :idea: :?:

Airfoil formers: A second category of parts that might be stored at or near the flying sight: airfoil formers. Say sail is taut. Atop and beneath the taut sail may be attached airfoil formers of various sorts. Such formers might be a bulky but low-mass part of a HG design and might beg not to be toted all the way from home. How might the airfoil formers be stored near flying site or at flying site? The formers may not have to be stored with or near the spar parts (see above notes). Say the parts are nested cups or polyester film or polyurethane compressible foam, or rigid-foam forms, ... Some landscape formations use huge expanded styrene foam to help sculpt small lumps and bumps or to fill unwanted voids.

However, some safety and legal matters may need to be carefully considered when hiding or storing parts. One could be held liable for breaking laws, ordinances, rules. Injury to persons or property by illegally stored parts could burden the injured and the part placer. :salute: :!:
Artificial Intelligence at ChatGPT gave an answer to one of my questions:

Artificial Intelligence at ChatGPT gave an answer to one of my questions. ChatGPT wrote:What are good methods to hide parts in the public environment?

There are several methods that can be used to hide parts in the public environment, depending on the specific context and the degree of concealment required. Some possible methods include:

Camouflage: Camouflaging the part by using materials or colors that blend in with the surrounding environment can be an effective way to make it less noticeable. This can include using foliage or netting to hide equipment or using paint or patterns to blend in with the surroundings.

Concealment: Concealing the part behind a structure, such as a wall or fence, can help to hide it from view. This can also include using screens or curtains to block the part from view.

Disguise: Disguising the part by altering its appearance can make it less recognizable. For example, placing a cover over a large piece of equipment or placing a fake facade over a structure can help to disguise it.

Obfuscation: Obfuscating the part by placing it in an area with a lot of visual clutter or distractions can make it less noticeable. This can include placing it in a busy area or near other objects that draw the eye.

Restriction: Restricting access to the part by placing it in a secured area or behind a locked door can help to prevent it from being seen by the public.

It's important to note that some of these methods may not be appropriate or legal in certain contexts, so it's important to consider the specific situation and any relevant laws or regulations before attempting to hide parts in the public environment.
Last edited by JoeF on Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Chris McKeon » Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:48 am

OK, I am more than a bit surprised by the absense of a reply to where I previously Commented on this The 5' packed HG Movement. By the way, when I saw the photo of the Guys being able to Bacck Pack their Gliders. I thought to Myself; What an awesome concept being utilized so as to be able to move their Gliders. I mean, I for one one be willing to cross broad tracks of land knowing that I experienced that dreaded Filthy, Vulgiur, Cuss Word. If I did experience {SINK| and I was forced to land it would be so cool to know that I could Short-Pack My Glider and Pack My Predator on My Back out of no Mans Land.

My Question to all You Hawks is; Why is it I seem to be the only One to see the advantage of this system?
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:06 am

Chris, you are not alone on seeing advantages for tiny packing, short packing, lightened packing, etc. The topic has been massaged for over a hundred years. Otto Lilienthal saw advantages of small packing hang gliders. :salute: :salute:
=====================

Eddie Paul Whitney (RIP) actually flew his hang glider while having a second copy of his HG Porta-Wing strapped to his back. His HG had a cable-LE challenge that was not copied by others for substantial reasons. But his demonstration of small packing was acute in the early 1970s. Earlier in this topic thread, hang gliding's first official org formally titled historian Neil Larson mentioned Eddie Paul on this point. Eddie flew his Porta-Wing in some severe conditions and had an injurious crash resulting in some serious surgery. But his death was from non-flight causes.
Some discussion on Eddie's matters in our forum: Keywords: cable leading edge sails, Porta-Wing, portawing, E.P. Industries, Eddie Paul, "cable leading edge"
https://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1817
https://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=1241
https://www.hotrodhotline.com/ode-eddie-paul#.ZB9GknbMIms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Paul
https://1025kiss.com/eddie-paul-a-legen ... ssed-away/
Not Eddie's, but GNU-Porta-Glider: http://www.laboratoridenvol.com/project ... ex.en.html
https://easyreadernews.com/inventor-edd ... for-texas/
To accommodate the flood of movie and television work that followed, Paul quickly moved to a large Franklin Street warehouse. For recreation, he took up hang gliding at the Dockweiler Beach training center, which led to his design and manufacturing of a hang glider he called Porta-Wing. It could be assembled in five minutes without tools and broken down into five-foot-long pieces, rather than the 25-foot-long pieces common at the time.


=========================================================
PortaWingTinyPackingSketch.jpg
PortaWingTinyPackingSketch.jpg (37.81 KiB) Viewed 888 times

PortaWingCarriedOnPortaWingEddiePaulRIP500pix.jpg
PortaWingCarriedOnPortaWingEddiePaulRIP500pix.jpg (67.88 KiB) Viewed 887 times

=================================================================
:!: :!: :!: :arrow: :arrow: Note: Before building and flying any cable-leading edge hang glider, I recommend that one study all sailboat sailing cable-leading-edge sail matters, all aerodynamic studies of cable-leading-edge wings, all critiques in hang gliding about the Porta-Wing. The matter is to be treated with highest technical respects. Concerns about trippy pitch matters, beam-buckling matters, and gust effects are some of the keen topics to be mastered. Modified or enhanced cable-leading-edge HG wings form a branch of experimenting that has yet to reach maturity: go forward with utmost care. :shock:
========================================================
:wave: Note about Porta-Wing spar couplers: see interior insert that ate part of the pack length. Different could be the coupler proposed in a former thread post: exterior center-stop-butt over-segment coupler as separate part to avoid pack lengthening.
:salute: Notice how the Porta-Wing frame topology could be a base mimicking the Dial-Soap ship bowsprit topoloy whereas the Dial-Soap wing used the spar as the LE, whereas Porta-Wing started sail at the forward cable. The bowsprit Dial-Soap wing used the spar as sail LE base. In contemporary experiment at my shop: "build airfoil upon a taut-sail base" using spar LE in bowsprit spar topology. Special attention for anti buckling is recommended for the span spar of the bowsprit, sweep or not, keel-connected or not.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:38 pm

Beef up and stabilize the spar of left wing; same for right wing. Pin span-spar to keel to help shorten buckling dynamics.
Last edited by JoeF on Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:42 pm

One source gives the following unverified notes on the Whitney Porta-Wing:
The Whitney Porta-Wing spars are in 4 ft lengths with aluminium sleeves which allows it to be disassembled in 10 minutes to a 5 ft package. A cable leading edge forms a cylindrical edge shape to give a gull dihedral for more lift.
The airframe consists of a keel and a wing spar that are kept under compression by a cable around the perimeter. Tubing is 2in x .058 6061-T6 anodised aluminium, reinforced with internal bushings. Sleeves are quad-spaced pop riveted into the main tubes.
All rigging is 3/32 in 7 x 7 aircraft quality. At the cable leading edge the wire rope is sleeved with “Eastman” plastic tubing. Double swagged throughout. All fasteners are grade 8 and thimbles are stainless steel, except heavy galvanised at the wing tips. Tangs are machined from stainless steel. Turnbuckles are polished bronze. All nuts and pins are aircraft quality. The sail is double zig-zag stitched from 3.8oz Bainbridge stabilised dacron. Critical areas are reinforced.
A swing seat was provided with 3/32in wire rope. The harness included sheathed tubing over the cables. Armaflex sleeves were on the control bars.
A low aspect ratio glider, it folds down into a small package 5ft x 1ft.
Leading edge: 18 ft
Keel length: 16 ft
Wing span: 26 ft
Wing area: 208 sq,ft
Aspect ratio: 1.6
Nose angle: 135˚
Sail billow: varies˚
Weight: 35 lb
Pilot weight: 140-220 lb
Takeoff speed: 5-7 mph
Stall speed: 4-5 mph
Max speed: 20 mph
Best glide ratio (L/D): 4-1
Best L/D speed: 15 mph
Attachments
PortaWingShowingOutOfColumnSpreaderSparLeftAndRight500pixel.jpg
See spreader beam; look at left mid-beam and right mid-beam; do you see out-of-column formation?
PortaWingShowingOutOfColumnSpreaderSparLeftAndRight500pixel.jpg (41.59 KiB) Viewed 873 times
Last edited by JoeF on Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:10 pm

Joe wrote:See spreader beam; look at left mid-beam and right mid-beam; do you see out-of-column formation?


Yes.

I think that connecting any spar (under compression) at points other than its two end points risks such an out-of-column condition. In modern gliders, there are typically 5 tubes under compression (2 cross bars, 2 downtubes, 1 kingpost). Each is only connected to anything else at its two end points (except downtubes which are often strengthened against pilot's control forces). That's one of the advantages of the split cross bar - each half is only connected at its end points.

As soon as you connect a spar under compression to a third location, you must ensure that all 3 (or more) connection points will remain colinear. That's very difficult to guarantee in a structure as flexible as a typical hang glider.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby dhmartens » Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:51 pm

We lack the funds to reply to every post and concentrate on what works and can be achieved.
I own a falcon 225 and the crossbar is of a wider diameter than the leading edge. So if I can get my hands on a bowsprit I can modifiy if to allow telescopic shortpacking less than 10 feet, possibly 6 feet.
It is an experiment that will cost about $600.
https://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31761
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:32 pm

dhmartens wrote:We lack the funds to reply to every post and concentrate on what works and can be achieved.
I own a Falcon 225 and the crossbar is of a wider diameter than the leading edge. So, if I can get my hands on a bowsprit, I can modify it to allow telescopic shortpacking less than 10 feet, possibly 6 feet.
It is an experiment that will cost about $600.


1. Could the cost be more with facing a possible loss of flight time with Falcon 225?
2. For my part in these posts toward the 5-ft or less tiny packing, I hope I am not suggesting that members spend much money doing experiments until high confidence is theoretically found for coming up with 5 ft or less tiny packing. Theoretical exploration is more invited, I hope.
3. Going to "6 ft" may well satisfy some important and worthy goal for you or someone else, but such is matter that is aside from the target theme of this topic thread. Tony Prentice has some 6 ft and 2 m stated targets, and those, as such, are worthy matters for him and for topics beyond this present topic thread. The 5-ft is the upper edge; most of the core centers then at 2.5 ft with interest in less and interest in more up to 5 ft. Thus the "1 m" Club, etc. In hang gliding, "short-packed" has expression in 6-ft to 10 ft in some commercial offerings; but such is a different game than the game of the present topic theme, thus 'tiny pack" might play better, shorter thant "short pack."

True, it is unreasonable to spend time and money and material to do every possible experiment; there are more than tens of thousands of possible experiments. Conceptual engineering is first invited. Results of any experiment over hang gliders could be interesting and possibly helpful.
1mx1ftx1ftHGpack.jpg
Tiny pack conceptual tease ... One-Meter Club.
1mx1ftx1ftHGpack.jpg (15.84 KiB) Viewed 852 times
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby dhmartens » Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:58 pm

A scale model might be the way to go.


https://www.reallycooltoys.com/store/Ae ... duct_id=94

JoeF thanks for the bautek thread you posted,
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Chris McKeon » Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:53 pm

Ok, I believe that I will be heading Down South after John returns from Idaho. I have run by John My idea of having John stopping by and picking up Me. We will load My Predator up onto His Van, then Head down to Southern California. John is going to do an IRAN on My Predator. Bod told Me; You get Yourself down here We will put You Up. Thank You Bob.

Anyways regarding My returning to HG Flight. John said to Me: When You begin flying HG's again You really should think about a Single surface Glider. So there is a very real possibility that Cameron might be answering My Phone cell. I will take Johns advice by committing to My Flying a Single Surface.


As I indicated, I will act on John's advice. i will be Flying a single surface Glider for a while. But I said to John; Look at My History. My First Glider was a Wills-Wing 225 Falcon. My second Glider was my 158 Predator. I said to John; Look at Me, regarding My landing's on My Falcon, and My Predator. Look i will admit it. I am no Hero lander. But that being said, I do O k when it comes to Landing a HG. Well The Falcon, I will admit even though whacking My Falcon was a quite a rare occurrence, but it did happen now and then. Then I transitioned to FLYING my Pewsdator 158, Wo Law! I felt as if I had arrived. The Predator would land so much better than the Falcon. that old saying comes to mind when I am thinking about the Predators ability to cover Miles over the Ground. Or regarding landing just about anywhere. What a Glider!

When I see John, I will be asking Him about short Packing My 158.
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