[Bob Kuczewski]

The censorship on hanggliding.org continues in the topic titled: "WILLS WING SHORT PACK - IS IT WORTH IT?"

In that discussion, several of the posts by "dhmartens" appear to have been removed. Not only were the posts themselves removed from the forum, but the subsequent posts by "Paul H" appear to have been doctored to remove any direct quotes of the removed posts. This makes the posts by "Paul H" appear to be "out of the blue" and completely out of context.

Fortunately, a version of these posts was captured before they were removed. That version is reported below:

The topic starts out with a very reasonable question by "pleng":

Hi,

I am considering buying a new WW Falcon and I was wondering if the short pack option is something I would benefit from. I never seen one up close, nor do I know anybody that has one. So it does not seem like a popular choice but yet it seems to be out would offer various convenient benefits So I am seeking your experience here on many questions that I have :

Could someone tell how long it really takes to break down into short pack configuration and vice versa (setup from short packed)? What are the surface & weather requirements to perform this? (Can it be done outside on grass/in the break down area and in most flyable weather/wind?)

Also what structural compromise would I be making if I opt for the short pack? (I don't know how it works, never seen one up close). Is the glider any weaker since the leading edge has to be in 2 parts? On the other side do I gain anything if I ever need to replace a leading edge!?

Any experience with it and feedback on it's usefulness?

(Would another glider be a better choice as a short pack option?)

Thanks!

Pierre

Then "red" quotes "pleng" and gives a response:

RE: WILLS WING SHORT PACK - IS IT WORTH IT?

Hi,
I am considering buying a new WW Falcon and I was wondering if the short pack option is something I would benefit from.
Also what structural compromise would I be making if I opt for the short pack? Thanks!
Pierre

Pierre,

In the past, the WW short pack option amounted to removing the rear section of the leading edge, so the section of the leading edge from the nose plate to the crossbars remained intact. Look at any Falcon and see if that much reduction in pack length seems worthwhile to you. You will still have most of a glider, when short-packed. Please verify the short-pack length of the Falcon you want from Wills Wing, if possible.

As with any short-packed glider, assembly on the flying site would be time-consuming, and any sand or grit in the parts could become a serious problem, costing you the day or more.

I see no problems with the structural strength, either way. Do you travel enough to need a short-packed glider?

Then "BlueDonut" adds his comments:

I have owned one for about a year, wasn't seeking it out. I just wanted a flacon and that is what I found. It was in the short pack configuration when I got it and it fit in the bed of my pickup truck. Which was very nice because I didn't have a rack setup on my truck at the time.

Having never assembled one, it took the better part of 4 hours with two inexperienced guys working it out. I would imagine a subsequent time would be significantly less but still it was time consuming and required a clean open space as Red eluded to.

If you're not going to travel with the glider via aircraft or some vehicle you can't or won't rack... I don't see the point. I have not and likely will not put it back in the short pack configuration ever again. Aside from that it is a wonderfully flying glider and I love it.

-Blake

Then "dhmartens" added a post commenting that various forms of short packing might be the future for the sport of hang gliding to make it as convenient as paragliding (PG). But this post by "dhmartens" appears to have been deleted. Take particular notice of the quote about AI working on the issue:

Yes it is absolutly worth it. If you want hang gliding to have a future. The PG eat our lunch and I am a member of banned uslarks.org. But Jack A. is an angel to us so please do not ban the future of hang gliding. The Atos VX is more advanced. We have AI working on the portible hang glider issue. look for miniture prototypes.

The next post was by "dew98765". In this post, "dew98765" explicitly quotes the post by "dhmartens" about AI working on the issue. But where is the original post by "dhmartens" on hanggliding.org? It's gone!! It looks as if "dew98765" completely fabricated the quote by "dhmartens" because the original post is no longer there! Here's the post by "dew98765" with the quote by "dhmartens":

We have AI working on the portible hang glider issue. look for miniture prototypes.

Now, you have me curious. . . Can you share any more info? I'd like to know what you doing.

Then "dhmartens" added some context with this post which also appears to have been deleted:

Jack A. blocks my links because I represent a competing brand and he is justified.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wAhig3qSCE
https://live.staticflickr.com/7581/1589 ... 3397_c.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rCILqChzHc

But my employment with the treasury dept allows me to destroy my enemies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWE4n4A4N9g

This post by "dhmartens" was not deleted (at least as of Sunday night October 8, 2023):

Douglas Martens will Debate Tim Herr openly publicly so we can move our organization foward.
It is time to move foward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSEVyzKmlyU
Douglas Martens now rus this organization and Tim Herr is subservient.

But this post by "dhmartens" also appears to have been deleted (note his introduction of "fentanyl" to the discussion):

Politics aside, we are focusing on engineering. Would the telescopic short pack upgrade be of any value to you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR8s2dV7k4U&t=260s
Another form of telescopic wing.

The most important hang gliding video of 2023.
The drug mule/drug smuggler in this CBP video is dropping 250lbs of fentanyl at the 1 minute 37 second point using a powered hang glider of some sort.
That is enough fentanyl to kill over 50 million Americans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW5zOZb8yAk
short version:
the short version is banned from this forum so you must watch the long version as per rules of this forum which we respect.

This post by "dhmartens" also appears to have been deleted:

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2023 ... h-florida/

Note that the following original post by "Paul H" quotes the earlier post by "dhmartens", but that quote (inside the post by "Paul H") has now been deleted on hanggliding.org. Note that "Paul H" had both quoted and replied to the fentanyl comment introduced by "dhmartens" as shown here. But the version on hanggliding.org only shows the reply by "Paul H". This raises the question: "How was the topic of fentanyl introduced in the first place?" Without the context of the quote by "dhmartens" (which shows up here, but was removed on hanggliding.org), it appears that "Paul H" begins ranting on the topic of fentanyl ... out of thin air:

Politics aside, we are focusing on engineering. Would the telescopic short pack upgrade be of any value to you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR8s2dV7k4U&t=260s
Another form of telescopic wing.

The most important hang gliding video of 2023.
The drug mule/drug smuggler in this CBP video is dropping 250lbs of fentanyl at the 1 minute 37 second point using a powered hang glider of some sort.
That is enough fentanyl to kill over 50 million Americans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW5zOZb8yAk
short version:
the short version is banned from this forum so you must watch the long version as per rules of this forum which we respect.

Fentanyl only kills users. As long as there is a demand, there will be drugs coming into our country. There is no way to completely stop it. That being said, WTF does that have to do with hang gliding? Maybe you should keep that BS over on the bob k site.

This post by "dhmartens" was in reply to the "Paul H" post, but it also appears to have been deleted:

Hi Paul H. maybe you are right. but the video I posted shows a hang glider with the potential of killing 69 million Amercans.
go to 1:37 on the video I posted earlier. since you took the time to care I will also post a possible drug run to New Zealand using a boat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPc2ARYqzY4
Also since you care I will also disclose a number of "verteran" hang gliders are betting equities that paragliders through privatee equity investment firms, will wipe out hang gliding, and thus fund their retirement.
I have a solution and Jack A. sees this.

Similarly, this post by "Paul H" originally quoted the post by "dhmartens" (as shown here). But again, on hanggliding.org, the quote of the post by "dhmartens" is now missing from the post by "Paul H". Without the context of the "dhmartens" post, it now appears that "Paul H" continues his ranting about fentanyl ... out of thin air:

Hi Paul H. maybe you are right. but the video I posted shows a hang glider with the potential of killing 69 million Amercans.
go to 1:37 on the video I posted earlier. since you took the time to care I will also post a possible drug run to New Zealand using a boat.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPc2ARYqzY4
Also since you care I will also disclose a number of "verteran" hang gliders are betting equities that paragliders through privatee equity investment firms, will wipe out hang gliding, and thus fund their retirement.
I have a solution and Jack A. sees this.

There's no maybe about it, if you don't use, it can't kill you. As far as me caring, I don't give a pinch of s--- about users. Their choice, their problem. The rest of your post looks like typical nutjob crap from the bobk site. We don't need that crazy here.

This is the classic example of how one lie leads to another. It's clear Jack wanted to delete parts of the discussion contributed by "dhmartens". So he effectively told a lie by removing those parts of the discussion. But that meant that Jack then needed to modify the posts of others who had quoted "dhmartens". So Jack told another lie when he removed the quotes of "dhmartens" contained in the posts by "Paul H". But now it looks like "Paul H" is talking about fentanyl for no reason. Maybe Jack didn't give much consideration to that aspect of his trickery? Jack has not only done a disservice to "dhmartens", but Jack now makes "Paul H" look like he's ranting about fentanyl ... in the middle of a short packing discussion!!

Here's the lesson that Jack should have learned way back in elementary school:

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
when first we practice to deceive.

[Bob Kuczewski]

By the way, I'm not sure that anyone actually answered all of the questions by Pierre on that "other site", so I'll offer my experience on the off chance that Pierre can find his way to the U.S. Hawks (not very likely from behind Jack's Iron Curtain).

Hi,

I am considering buying a new WW Falcon and I was wondering if the short pack option is something I would benefit from. I never seen one up close, nor do I know anybody that has one. So it does not seem like a popular choice but yet it seems to be out would offer various convenient benefits So I am seeking your experience here on many questions that I have :

Could someone tell how long it really takes to break down into short pack configuration and vice versa (setup from short packed)? What are the surface & weather requirements to perform this? (Can it be done outside on grass/in the break down area and in most flyable weather/wind?)

Also what structural compromise would I be making if I opt for the short pack? (I don't know how it works, never seen one up close). Is the glider any weaker since the leading edge has to be in 2 parts? On the other side do I gain anything if I ever need to replace a leading edge!?

Any experience with it and feedback on it's usefulness?

(Would another glider be a better choice as a short pack option?)

Thanks!

Pierre

Hello Pierre,

I have a Falcon that I've short packed and unpacked one time. I followed the entire procedure except that I didn't cut the battens and insert the joining plugs. But other than the battens, I did put it in its travel case where I kept it for some time until unpacking it.

I think it took me about 3 or 4 hours to do, but much of that time was spent reading and re-reading the instructions. Just as with setting up a glider, it's much harder to do the first time than the 100th time. I would guess that someone fully experienced with the process (and able to avoid all potential pitfalls and head scratching time) could do it in about an hour. It can be done on grass or carpet, but it should be somewhere that the wing or other parts won't be damaged by the surface. I did it outside both times, but without much wind. I think a flyable wind would be a greater challenge and might require some helpers.

As for structural compromises, I'm not an expert, but I did feel that some of the sheet metal screws going into aluminum might begin to wear out the threads after several iterations. That's the only thing I can recall that concerned me.

Whether the poles are weaker or not might depend on the kind of load they are exposed to. All of the Falcon's joined poles contain some amount of overlap, so they might be better able to resist a "ding" at those points. On the other hand, no joint is perfect, and poles under compression will generally fail sooner if they are not perfectly straight. Translation: I am not sure.

You do point out an advantage that I hadn't considered. If only one half of a pole is damaged, I see no reason why just that half couldn't be replaced.

Overall, I am happy enough with the possibility of short-packing my Falcon when needed. I had originally considered short packing it more often, but the effort of doing it once was enough (unless needed). But it does fly very well, and I do recommend it.

If you have a situation that demands more frequent short packing, you might also consider a Finsterwalder:

https://www.finsterwalder-charly.de/en/hanggliders-a-accessories/hangglider-features.html

Finsterwalder.jpg (60.63 KiB) Viewed 765 times

or alternatively, consider the "5 ft-packed-HG Movement" being addressed by Joe Faust:

       https://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1916

Good luck, and please keep us updated!

[dhmartens]

ushawks officially likes that Jack A. censors posts on his brands forum. We do the same and it brings value to these brands.
Again we have no problem with editing posts on hanggliding.org as long as it is done legally.
Youtube and Telegram both are brands that can moderate posts and youtube is hugely valuable by removing some content.

Here is an example of a youtube channel that moderates contenet to create a high value brand. Telegram will post anything as an attempt to gain market share.
https://youtu.be/bZIlJSvoyeg?si=GpHc30_px6pdDxib&t=23

even Elon Musk censors "X" "Twitter"
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/i ... 2023-10-09

Even though I have been banned from hanggliding.org I still support Jack A. and his moderating. I make huge money from companies that moderate their content and I am not hypocritical of the practice.
I value the feedback I got from Jack A. forum and I am indebted to him from breaking the logjam on making a short pack prototype.
Again Thanks Jack A. I am sorry you had to deal with the circus.

"....
You have been permanently banned from this board.

Please contact the Board Administrator for more information.

Reason given for ban: Multiple people reporting multiple violations. Flagrant rule violations.

A ban has been issued on your username.

..."

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks for the report Doug. Your user name has been added to the "Banned of Brothers" topic. Jack had often referred to hanggliding.org as a "Band of Brothers" ... which it never was, and I believe it was Warren who turned the clever phrase "Banned of Brothers".   

ushawks officially likes that Jack A. censors posts on his brands forum.

No, we don't. We don't like censorship. We like hang gliding.

We would never have needed to exist if USHPA had provided a fair and unbiased communication mechanism (as was intended by some of its founders).

We would never have needed to exist if either Jack or Davis provided a fair and unbiased communication mechanism (as hoped by many of their members).

But they all failed. They all succumbed to the various temptations of their own power.

The U.S. Hawks has been firm in our dedication to hang gliding ... and free speech.

[dhmartens]

Thanks Bob the Us hawks does not take this lightly we are expanding mining opeartions 50 miles west of ushpa head quarters,
Jack A. was given advanced warning of the event as a reward for aiding us in our quest for a portible hangglider. Now you have the knowledge 24 hours later.
https://www.google.com/maps/search/sali ... ?entry=ttu
As long as ushpa is anti semetic we will ues the treasury dept. employment benefit ofered to me to eliminte all enemies of ushpga 1 by one and we will use subcontracters as permitted my my employemnt contract.
We have mining operations scheduled for:
Creastilne, elsonore, point of the mountain, Torrey, Sylmar.
Notice I do not lie because my brain works better if it doesn't track who I have lied to.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks Bob the Us hawks does not take this lightly we are expanding mining opeartions 50 miles west of ushpa head quarters,
Jack A. was given advanced warning of the event as a reward for aiding us in our quest for a portible hangglider. Now you have the knowledge 24 hours later.
https://www.google.com/maps/search/sali ... ?entry=ttu
As long as ushpa is anti semetic we will ues the treasury dept. employment benefit ofered to me to eliminte all enemies of ushpga 1 by one and we will use subcontracters as permitted my my employemnt contract.
We have mining operations scheduled for:
Creastilne, elsonore, point of the mountain, Torrey, Sylmar.

Doug, I have to say that sometimes ... I just don't know about you!!         

Notice I do not lie because my brain works better if it doesn't track who I have lied to.

I support that statement 100%. If you've read the recent rewriting of history by Jack, you'll see how he tangled himself up in a knot trying to figure out who's posts to change and how much. He was trying to tell a lie about the history of the topic by deleting your posts, but there were too many places where he couldn't make his "lie" match what people had actually written. If he were trying to be "Big Brother", he really botched that job.

Really, I don't care at all what Jack does on his site. But people need to know that they are killing the sport of hang gliding by relying on that severely broken form of communication. Imagine if the U.S. Armed Forces of WWII were forced to communicate through a system where messages and documents could be suppressed and/or altered at any point in time. We would all be speaking German today. That's what the sport of hang gliding is suffering with, and I do believe that the divisions created by Jack, Davis, and USHPA have contributed mightily to the decline of hang gliding in the United States.

My goal to grow the U.S. Hawks is not just to have a better alternative, but to create a sport-wide platform where ideas can be shared to improve our ability to fly. That's something that neither Jack, nor Davis, nor USHPA have provided in the last 13 years.

[dhmartens]

The mine near Point of the Mountain may not be a good idea for environmental reasons. The drought nearly evaporated the Great Salt Lake and could lead to ecological disaster.

I combined two prototypes into one, and oiled the telescopic mechanism. Now just cut the sail cloth and I shopuld have pics to post.