[dhmartens]

JoeF, In the first few seconds of the video you posted is the only footage on earth of someone hiking and flying s short packed hang glider. As a Ushpa member I have seen in their internal notes that they are exploring a "Hike and Fly Commitee". Just to let you know.

[JoeF]

https://poe.com/s/Ux9iJTgPiO38TXA3i9kn

[JoeF]

In a closely recent post the Xbar was designed to use an A tube and two B tubes. Such use of a B/2 and a B/2 tube that telescope into the A results in a rough telescoping double-tapered subassembly. Such double tapering is not optimal for resisting buckling. This note is about an option of making the Xbar's A tubes into a more refined double-tapered part. By various methods the 5 -ft A tube centered between two half-B tubes could be constructed with double tapering without bothering the tiny-packing telescopy for the involved two specialized A tubes. E.g., by judicious layups of CF materials, the selected A tubes could see double tapering on the exterior of the tube; notice that in packing schemes the A tubes do not have to fit inside any other tube; using the freedom layups that thicken the central portion of the tube could resist buckling better; such improvement just might allow a final lower mass of the special A tube.

A more labor intensive means for specializing the Xbar A tubes to be double-tapered: a sacrificial mandrel might be used to taper the ID of the tube from large at the tube's center to less as one goes away from the center of the tube. The sacrificial mandrel might be melted out or dissolved out, or the like; I am novice on these matters.

The As on LE may receive exterior doublers as needed without bothering telescopy for tiny packing. So, there may be varieties of A via exterior-surface changes or wider IDs affecting also wider ODs.

xA might be a symbol to distinguish such an A from the LE As and keel's A.

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When an A tube is specialized like here discussed, perhaps a symbol could help to distinguish it from the LE As and the keel A tube. Maybe xA

Someone might double-taper and aerofoil-shape or streamline the xA in some tiny-packed HG.

=================================
Doug, thanks for the "hike and fly" committee heads up. Of course, even before I helped found USHGA, in Self-Soar Association in Low & Slow we had firm hike-and-fly text. Indeed, one of my favorite pages was "Up-and-down technology" for hang gliding. And Bob has a record for hike-and-flies at Dockweiler site! At many training hills HG is a hike-and-fly deal inviting low-mass HGs to be in the deal! The hiked carry-back wing begs to be low-massed!

[JoeF]

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istLineTorsionInvolved001.jpg[/attachment]This note has a focus on a category of conservative HGs intended for tiny packing that have not the popular pocket rib battens.

Sets of rib battens in a sail have their benefits, but have their costs. In some scenarios of hike-bus-fly tiny packing, low mass may be a target for a tiny-packed hang glider. And quickness of assembly and disassembly become important. A question will come up: are there some simpler ways to win back some of the benefits that pocketed rib-battens may give? Those matters could be part of this discussion.

Caution: if one has a certified wing involving batten ribs, then use those according to the manufacturer's guide. Fine. I am not herein recommending not using your batten-ribs. Use them per the needs of the particular wing. And get the blessings the batten ribs are meant to give.

This discussion is about designing conservative hang gliders perhaps without batten ribs; safety is important. One might give up some performance as tradeoffs are made, but test, test, test ... and accept only safe design.

Let's delineate some of the costs of having batten-rib sets.
Having to put pockets into the sail.
Having to maintain the pockets in the sail
Having to carry the mass of the pockets involved.
Having to build the pockets into the sail.
Having to make the batten ribs.
Having to maintain, inspect, fix the batten ribs.
Having to assemble the batten ribs.
Having to guard against stepping on the batten ribs.
Having to carefully pack the batten ribs into the tiny-pack.
Having to handle the bulk of the batten ribs during the bus riding or other means.
Having to ever protect the batten ribs from damage.
Having to inspect the batten ribs for shape, corrosion. tip integrity.
Having to remember to pack the batten rib set when going on a trek and bus to a flight session.
? ////
Feel free to tell your batten-rib costs.......
============================================

Designing conservative hang gliders without batten ribs is now to be discussed some. And such topic could remain open for a long time, maybe for all time! Of course there have been many hang gliders without batten ribs already. As experience grew, it became widespread to have batten ribs in many hang gliders. I am not advocation a simple return to former wings having no batten ribs. But I am massaging some non-standard possible solutions to getting some airfoils without the in-sail long batten ribs. Some of the directions of massage: stuffers, low-mass rings, sail buttons controlled using draggy lines, ram-air stuffers, line-stayed frontal-only short battens, and more. I'll be reporting my experiment. Others are invited to share their explorations.
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The leading-edge tube is often stayed by bolts; torsion from a dive stick under normal operation puts little torsion on the leading-edge tube assembly. Loose LE sail pockets put little or no torsion on the leading edge; the LE edge tubes care for bending forces and axial compression forces arriving from flight loads on the sail and blunt airflow forces. But leading edge tubes might be wasting some asset in unused ability to handle torsion. Too much torsion on an inadequate tube could bring failure of a tube. Wingtip designs and control surfaces outboard can be placing torsion on LE tubes.

I want to explore asseting torsion of the leading edge tubes by using airfoil formers braced by being rooted into or onto the leading edge tube.
More later.

Here is what Chat GPT 3.5 had to say about the above:

Your ideas for designing conservative hang gliders without traditional batten ribs and exploring new solutions are intriguing. By considering the potential benefits and costs of using or not using batten ribs, you're opening up a discussion on how to innovate in hang glider design. Here are some thoughts on your points:

Costs of Batten Ribs: You've made a comprehensive list of the various costs associated with using batten ribs, which includes manufacturing, maintenance, packing, and handling. These are important considerations when evaluating the practicality of their use.

Safety: It's crucial to emphasize that safety should always be a top priority in hang glider design. Any modifications or innovations must undergo rigorous testing to ensure they meet safety standards. Trade-offs in performance should be carefully considered, and only safe designs should be accepted.

Innovative Solutions: Your exploration of alternative methods for shaping the airfoil is an exciting aspect of this discussion. Options such as low-mass rings, sail buttons, and line-stayed frontal-only short battens could lead to more efficient and less complex designs.

Leading Edge Tube Torsion: Leveraging the leading-edge tubes for torsion is a potentially interesting approach. Careful engineering and testing would be necessary to ensure that they can handle the additional stress and torsion while maintaining safety.

Experimentation: It's great that you're planning to conduct experiments and explore these ideas further. Practical testing is vital for validating new concepts and assessing their feasibility.

Collaboration: Collaborating with other hang glider enthusiasts and engineers can help gather more insights and ideas. The hang gliding community may have valuable input and experiences to share.

Your ideas show that you're thinking creatively about hang glider design, with a focus on making hang gliding more accessible and efficient. As you experiment and explore these concepts, remember to document your findings and share your experiences with the community. Innovation in sports equipment can lead to exciting developments and improvements in the field.

==================

Devices to form airfoils that are assisted by draggy line:
Tolerating some draggy lines above the sail could allow the having an upper foundation from which lines could go down to support various devices in the front region of the sail where camber forming is wanted. This concept space can be opened for profound explorations. I will be sharing my results in this arena.

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Stuffers (already mentioned several ties in this topic thread) might be a world of substitutes when choosing not to have sail-pocked long batten ribs.
This realm can be extensively explored and explicated and evaluated. I intend some such play.

Chat GPT 3.5 (rarely combative) opines on the above additional notes:

Your exploration of using draggy lines and devices for camber forming is an intriguing concept. It could potentially lead to innovative and more flexible solutions for shaping airfoils in hang glider design. The idea of using draggy lines to support devices in the front region of the sail is a novel approach that opens up new possibilities for design and aerodynamic control.

Stuffers, as you've mentioned, can be a viable alternative to traditional sail-pocked long batten ribs, reducing complexity and weight while achieving the desired airfoil shape. Experimentation and evaluation in this realm can yield valuable insights into the feasibility and effectiveness of such solutions.

As you delve further into this exploration, documenting your findings and sharing your experiences with the hang gliding community can contribute to the collective knowledge in the field of hang glider design. Innovation often stems from unconventional thinking and the willingness to explore new possibilities. Your work in this area has the potential to advance hang glider technology and design.

Efforts are aimed at having handy tiny packed HGs that may be fun flying in conservative conditions.

[JoeF]

...continuing some glances at auxiliary drop lines assisting airfoil camber keeping:
yet with tiny-pacing in mind:

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Sorry about that white erase mark on suggestive deal. No rear batten ribs; but just LE batten ribs from LEcable to held dropline? Explore.

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Note: There can be a smaller tube symbolized now as "D" inside each C tube; use the 4 Ds for two sprogs and two wingtip dropline posts.
The versions are potentially "One-Crutch" candidates. And all: wagon candidates.

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Chest hug on bus? Crutchable?

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[JoeF]

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Some savings off that wing pictured in considering tiny-packing designing:
1. Have not the extended keel past the sail; deal with needs of the wind in other ways.
2. Have tensional rope instead of rigid basebar.
3. Intend only conservative flying.
4. Have not batten ribs. Explore torsional held cambered short frontal battens only. Mitigate reflex/dive control in other means. Or explore dropline-held camber for the zero-bellow sail. Or stuffers and a larger LE pocket
5. Handle washout torsionally and tensionally.
6. Go telescopic with tubes 5' or less.
7. Consider least area to meet recreational decisions.

[JoeF]

This note has some comment on holding telescopic tube sets during packed tote.
To avoid hazard to the public, the sets of telescopic tubes need to be securely held during bus riding, train riding, or interfacing otherwise with the public. What is to be avoided is sudden or gradual de-telescoping of the stored tubes. Assume we have a telescopic tube set of ABCD where A is the base larger tube and D is the smaller tube or stick inside of C inside of B inside of A. Without restraint rotations in space might send the pack into splayed visuals that could injure people or the parts themselves. Slosh of tubing is not wanted. Solve this challenge by some method.

One method to mitigate the challenge stated above is to have one hole near one end of each telescopic tube at the same distance from the end, say 1 inch from one end. Toughen those holes without obliterating the telescopy of the set. At packing up the glider, put a soft washer and bolt through the holes and set a soft washer and locking nut to close the deal; but be ready to consider a long enough bolt and spacer for the same long bolt to go through a second tube set, e.g. when constructing a wagon or crutch for tote. Such will stop tube slosh during tote and prevent hazardous inadvertent de-telescoping and spilling of tubes.

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SPECIAL OPPORTUNITY:
Play along: Let the above bolt be long enough to hold a wheel bearing (not the wheel yet) and another tube set for anti-slosh. The integration that occurs may construct the foot of a crutch form for the time of riding the bus or train. When wanted, mount two halves of a wheel to the wheel bearing in readiness for forming a wagon in conjunction with the other set of two tubes arranged similar to the first two tube sets just described above.

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"Wheels in two halves?" Seeking solutions to that...

Bolt the two halves together encircling extant bearing. Perhaps bond a plate of polyurethane onto aluminum shaped angle to form a quiet tread.

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[JoeF]

The half wheel needs a bit of a flange to hug the extant axle; such flange is not showing in the drawing of the prior post.

[JoeF]

What might be some impacts or changes in the world when tiny-packed framed hang gliders are available to public?
What would be your answer to such a question?

Start:
Youth without cars will be carrying their tiny-packed hang gliders on the bus and train to special flying sites.
Those in the world without cars may wagon and tote and bus TPHGs.
Landouts may be more frequent, as the tiny-packing will allow trekking more easily and hitchhiking easier.
Homebuilding of hang gliders may increase.
Build plans may increase in number.
More hang glider flights may be occurring in the world.
Price for having and operating a hang glider may significantly decrease,
Number of people posting in US Hawks forum may increase.
More flying sites may be tried.
Fewer cars for hang gliding may be employed.
More mountain-living people may visit the valleys; they could more easily ride the cable tram back to their home.
More valley-living people may get to the hills and mountains to fly their more easily toted hang glider.
Extant manufacturers of hang gliders may add tiny-packed hang gliders to their offers.
New manufacturers may come into the market with a focus on tiny-packed hang gliders.
Small off-road vehicles might carry TPHGs (tiny-packed hang gliders) to hidden conservative recreational gliding sites.
Participation at Dockweiler hang gliding park may increase by locals and visitors from afar arriving by bus, train, and trekking.
Hang glider owners may add some TPHGs to their collections.
More TPHGs may fit on a service vehicle.

I invited Chat GPT 3.5 to add some points, maybe the adds will be smart, maybe not:

Certainly, here are 20 more potential impacts and changes in the world when tiny-packed framed hang gliders become available to the public:

1. Aviation schools might incorporate training with tiny-packed hang gliders into their programs, offering a more affordable entry point to the world of aviation.

2. Adventure tourism operators may start offering guided tours and excursions centered around tiny-packed hang glider experiences, opening up new opportunities for travelers.

3. Increased demand for lightweight, compact backpacks and gear designed for transporting tiny-packed hang gliders to remote launch sites.

4. Hang gliding competitions and races may introduce categories or events specifically for tiny-packed hang gliders, diversifying the sport.

5. Environmental conservation efforts may benefit, as more people explore the outdoors and develop a deeper connection to nature through hang gliding.

6. Collaborations between hang gliding communities and public transportation authorities to create more accessible routes to launch sites, fostering eco-friendly travel.

7. Tiny-packed hang gliders may be used for emergency search and rescue operations, thanks to their portability and quick assembly.

8. Hang gliding schools and clubs may see an increase in membership, leading to more resources for instruction and safety.

9. A rise in innovation and research related to materials and designs for compact hang gliders, pushing the boundaries of what's possible in aviation.

10. Improved hang gliding infrastructure, such as dedicated storage facilities and assembly areas at popular flying sites.

11. Tiny-packed hang gliders could be used in film and photography, offering unique angles and perspectives for filmmakers and content creators.

12. Increased opportunities for hang gliding in urban environments, with enthusiasts using public transport to reach rooftop launch sites.

13. A boost in the market for specialized hang glider repair and maintenance services, catering to both traditional and tiny-packed models.

14. Educational institutions may introduce hang gliding into their sports and physical education curricula, promoting a healthy and active lifestyle.

15. More affordable and lightweight safety gear and equipment may become available, enhancing the overall hang gliding experience.

16. Hang gliding festivals and gatherings may become larger and more diverse, drawing in people from various backgrounds and age groups.

17. Adventure and outdoor sports stores might expand their inventory to include tiny-packed hang gliders and related accessories.

18. Hang gliding enthusiasts may form online communities and social media groups dedicated to sharing tips, experiences, and travel recommendations.

19. Tiny-packed hang gliders could inspire artists and creatives to explore the theme of flight in their work, resulting in a cultural renaissance of aviation-inspired art.

============ continuing
Some owners of TPHGs may explore electric launch from flatland. Look to city-busable e-TPHG for a new class of powered ultralights.

[JoeF]

I will let all to decide what Teddy Mack meant:
CEO at Thunderbird Kites and Gliders LLC

On LinkedIn:

Joe Faust 8:58 AM
A member of the TPHG movement posted a tease to Teddy Mack:

Get on the front end of the tiny (5-ft or less) packable conservative hang glider movement.
https://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1916

The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement
ushawks.org • 1 min read

TODAY ..... Teddy Mack responded:
Teddy Mack sent the following messages at 6:45 PM

Teddy Mack:
"Okay, great"
===================== Let it be recorded for the history of the TPHG movement ===================
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