[Bob Kuczewski]

Welcome Florian!!

By the way, you might not have noticed, but I decided to create a separate topic for your visit because I didn't want it to get lost in the very long 5 foot packed HG movement topic (currently well over 100 pages). But it's up to you and Joe as to which topic you'd like to use for all the great pictures and comments that will come during your visit. I can move posts between the two topics or merge them as you and Joe decide might best suit your purposes.

Either way, Welcome to California!!

[Semper Fidelis]

Remember the best reason to have a TPHG is because...

20241117 - Size matters in both ways.jpg (237.24 KiB) Viewed 172 times

[JoeF]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17LJPUpLXxo12bn5pFj2tlrI9_BkwIfWk/view On the Dockweiler visit, Florian took a moment to fly a local Condor 225 provided by Frank Colver and Bob Kuczewski. The video link is in my Google Drive. I guess anyone may download the video, not sure. Enjoy! We see a commercial jet taking off; as soon as that jet has cleared the screen, Florian seems to be given some kind of "OK" or "Clear" to fly into the blue yonder.

[JoeF]

Erika posted a strong
note
in Facebook about the Florian visit and Florian Flyer. Her post has several people replying in a way that matches the intended "movement" that is the topic of this discussion thread. Erika suggests that there may be some money to put behind the design efforts of tiny packed hang gliders. Good direction, Erika! And glad you want something a bit shorter than what you witnessed Monday at Dockweiler. Your aim will find satisfaction some day.

However, I hope she corrects the pack length to 140 cm or about 4 ft 7 inches or 55 inches. And maybe she will distinguish the HG cultural "short-pack" from the "tiny pack" hang glider, as there are many differences that matter for utility, transportation, challenge, etc.
https://www.facebook.com/erikajkleinofficial
=====================================================================================

While people were discussing Erika's Facebook post, someone mentioned Lightfex that packs "short'" to 1.85 m, but that is not "Tiny Pack"
Lightfex
Test essay: https://finsterwalder-charly.de/images/ ... ghtfex.pdf
"The 1.85 meter short pack size gives it a paraglider-like feel
Independence. " Quote from document.

==================================================================================
===================================================================================

[JoeF]

I am personally aiming for a 4-foot Tiny Packed Hang Glider (TPHG). As I work through the various steps toward this goal, I find it fascinating to revisit Hargrave's contributions to aeronautics. In this post, I’ve included a clip from The Aeronautical Journal, October 1897, featuring some material relevant to designing hang gliders.

HargraveExperiments001.JPG (43.51 KiB) Viewed 85 times

Click image to see any hidden words.

HargraveExperiments002.JPG (112.82 KiB) Viewed 85 times

HargraveExperiments003.JPG (79.19 KiB) Viewed 85 times

HargraveExperiments004.JPG (66.91 KiB) Viewed 85 times

HargraveExperiments005.JPG (70.53 KiB) Viewed 85 times

[JoeF]

Some workers in the TPHG movement might be wondering about ways of tiny packing biplane hang gliders and keeping low mass in mind. Consider Dyneema lines. Consider nestable beams. Examine opportunites for taper. Simine Short has been No. 1 biographer for Octave Chanute. Attached here is a book cover.

SimineShortBookOctaveChanuteCOVER.JPG (50.75 KiB) Viewed 84 times

[JoeF]

Some adventurers into TPHG movement explore many corners of the kite world
to sift for ideas that might advance the tiny packed hang glider designing.

[JoeF]

I am looking at a pack length of 2m which should still be bus-able (just) Anything smaller means more joins which add weight. Battens remain in the sails which concertina to the keel, so pack width is greater but it has all got to go somewhere. Wing L/E stiffening plastic sheet will be exoskeletal so it can be rolled up for packing but fitted like a nose cone (Velcro) and will provide a smooth surface for air flow. Weight should be around 20kg. Some cables need to be dis/connected but assembly time reasonably quick.

Just need the time to get around to building it.

Tony

Though not "tiny packed" your project wing offers some interesting points:
"exoskeletal" L.E. "stiffening plastic sheet".
"concertina" to the keel.
====================================
I asked ChatGPT to look at "concertina" and here is what it came up with:

Here is an illustration demonstrating the "concertina" method, where the hang glider's sail is folded accordion-style towards the keel. This technique shows how the sail and battens are compacted for transport while maintaining structural alignment.

This is for brainstorming value, perhaps!

ChatGPTonConcertinaSailToKeel.JPG (102.48 KiB) Viewed 78 times

Maybe someone will get a packing idea from the following concertina bag video. I am not recommending PG, but have a focus on the "concertina" deal that ARP mentioned in his 2015 post in this present thread.

[JoeF]

The following does not cover other specialty fabrics and films that might play in someone's TPHG project. The following note was a raw asking of ChatGPT about silk, ripstop nylon, and Dacron sailcloth. Hang gliding is seeing specialized fabrics and laminates which can be considered. And there are materials that are very expensive that might be considered. And materials that are futuristic. But for this post, generalized ( open for error and misapplication) response from an AI assistant:

Fabric Comparison: Silk vs. Nylon Ripstop vs. Dacron Sailcloth for TPHG

For a Tiny Packed Hang Glider (TPHG), the choice of fabric affects mass, volume packing, and gliding performance. Here's a detailed comparison:

1. Silk Fabric

• Advantages:
  
  • Lightweight: Exceptional for reducing glider weight.
  • Compact Packing: Thin and smooth for tight folding.
  • Flexibility: Adapts well to complex geometries.
  • Environmentally Friendly: Natural and biodegradable.
• Drawbacks:
  
  • Durability: Susceptible to tearing and UV degradation.
  • Moisture Sensitivity: Absorbs water, increasing weight and reducing performance.
  • Low Load Tolerance: Less suitable for high-tension applications.
• Suitability: Best for experimental, low-stress applications prioritizing weight and packing volume.

2. Nylon Ripstop

• Advantages:
  
  • Lightweight and Durable: Balances weight and tear resistance.
  • Compact Packing: Packs reasonably well.
  • Cost-Effective: More affordable than Dacron sailcloth.
  • Versatile: Available with UV and moisture-resistant coatings.
• Drawbacks:
  
  • UV Degradation: Requires treatment for prolonged exposure.
  • Stretch: Can affect aerodynamic stability.
  • Lower Rigidity: Does not hold airfoil shapes as well as Dacron.
• Suitability: Ideal for lightweight, portable designs with moderate performance needs.

3. Dacron Sailcloth

• Advantages:
  
  • High Durability: Resistant to tears, abrasion, and UV damage.
  • Aerodynamic Stability: Retains precise airfoil shapes under tension.
  • Moisture Resistance: Maintains performance in variable conditions.
• Drawbacks:
  
  • Higher Mass: Heavier than silk and nylon ripstop.
  • Bulkier Packing: Thicker material makes folding less compact.
  • Cost: More expensive than alternatives.
• Suitability: Best for conservative gliding with a focus on durability and stability.

Recommendation for TPHG Design

• Low Mass and Volume Priority: Silk or nylon ripstop are preferable. Nylon ripstop offers better durability and cost-effectiveness.
• Conservative Gliding Priority: Dacron sailcloth is superior for maintaining airfoil precision and handling stresses.

For most TPHG designs, lightweight nylon ripstop with UV and moisture-resistant coatings strikes the best balance between low mass, compact packing, and adequate durability for safe, conservative gliding.

When I then told the AI assistant that silk was used in early parachutes, the following tweaked response was given:

Fabric Comparison: Silk vs. Nylon Ripstop vs. Dacron Sailcloth for TPHG

For a Tiny Packed Hang Glider (TPHG), the choice of fabric affects mass, volume packing, and gliding performance. Here's a detailed comparison:

1. Silk Fabric

• Advantages:
  
  • Lightweight: Exceptional for reducing glider weight.
  • Compact Packing: Thin and smooth for tight folding.
  • Flexibility: Adapts well to complex geometries.
  • Historical Significance: Used in early parachutes for its strength and lightness.
  • Environmentally Friendly: Natural and biodegradable.
• Drawbacks:
  
  • Durability: Susceptible to tearing and UV degradation.
  • Moisture Sensitivity: Absorbs water, increasing weight and reducing performance.
  • Low Load Tolerance: Less suitable for high-tension applications.
• Suitability: Best for experimental, low-stress applications prioritizing weight and packing volume.

2. Nylon Ripstop

• Advantages:
  
  • Lightweight and Durable: Balances weight and tear resistance.
  • Compact Packing: Packs reasonably well.
  • Cost-Effective: More affordable than Dacron sailcloth.
  • Versatile: Available with UV and moisture-resistant coatings.
• Drawbacks:
  
  • UV Degradation: Requires treatment for prolonged exposure.
  • Stretch: Can affect aerodynamic stability.
  • Lower Rigidity: Does not hold airfoil shapes as well as Dacron.
• Suitability: Ideal for lightweight, portable designs with moderate performance needs.

3. Dacron Sailcloth

• Advantages:
  
  • High Durability: Resistant to tears, abrasion, and UV damage.
  • Aerodynamic Stability: Retains precise airfoil shapes under tension.
  • Moisture Resistance: Maintains performance in variable conditions.
• Drawbacks:
  
  • Higher Mass: Heavier than silk and nylon ripstop.
  • Bulkier Packing: Thicker material makes folding less compact.
  • Cost: More expensive than alternatives.
• Suitability: Best for conservative gliding with a focus on durability and stability.

Recommendation for TPHG Design

• Low Mass and Volume Priority: Silk or nylon ripstop are preferable. Nylon ripstop offers better durability and cost-effectiveness.
• Conservative Gliding Priority: Dacron sailcloth is superior for maintaining airfoil precision and handling stresses.

For most TPHG designs, lightweight nylon ripstop with UV and moisture-resistant coatings strikes the best balance between low mass, compact packing, and adequate durability for safe, conservative gliding.

Reminder: watch for errors and misapplications. The AI "recommendation" may well be in error. Validate one's design!


---------------------========================----------------------------============================-0
I wrote to the AI: "Do not repeat above notes, but as you might, look at advanced sailcloths that laminate some carbon fiber tow in Mylar or Dacron. And also look at Dyneema fibers in non-woven laminates."

Advanced Fabric Considerations for TPHG

In addition to traditional fabrics like silk, nylon ripstop, and Dacron sailcloth, advanced materials offer innovative options for achieving high performance in Tiny Packed Hang Gliders (TPHG).

1. Laminated Sailcloth with Carbon Fiber Tow

• Advantages:
  
  • Exceptional Strength-to-Weight Ratio: Carbon fiber provides superior stiffness and load distribution.
  • Precision in Airfoil Shape: Laminates reduce stretch, enhancing aerodynamic stability.
  • Durability: Resistant to UV, moisture, and abrasion with Mylar or Dacron layers.
• Drawbacks:
  
  • Cost: Significantly more expensive than traditional fabrics.
  • Packing Volume: Laminated materials may not fold as compactly as nylon ripstop or silk.
  • Complex Repair: Requires specialized tools and techniques for field repairs.
• Suitability: Ideal for advanced gliders focused on high performance and long-term durability, particularly for competitive or high-stress applications.

2. Dyneema Non-Woven Laminates

• Advantages:
  
  • Ultra-Lightweight: Dyneema fibers are among the strongest and lightest available.
  • High Tear Resistance: Non-woven construction enhances durability while minimizing weight.
  • Moisture and UV Resistance: Performs well in challenging environmental conditions.
  • Flexibility: Easier to pack than carbon laminates, retaining a compact volume.
• Drawbacks:
  
  • Cost: Premium material with higher production expenses.
  • Availability: Limited suppliers and custom fabrication may be needed.
  • Limited Stiffness: Less rigid than carbon-reinforced laminates, which may affect airfoil stability.
• Suitability: Excellent for ultralight TPHG designs where mass and packing volume are critical, while still demanding high tear resistance.

Recommendation for Advanced Applications

• High Performance and Stiffness Priority: Laminated sailcloth with carbon fiber tow is the best choice for precise airfoil shaping and high load-bearing capacity.
• Low Mass and Compact Packing Priority: Dyneema non-woven laminates are superior for reducing weight and achieving ultra-compact designs.
• Balanced Approach: A hybrid solution combining Mylar/Dyneema laminates with strategic carbon fiber reinforcements could optimize performance and packability.

For TPHG designers seeking cutting-edge solutions, advanced sailcloth materials like carbon-laminated Mylar or Dyneema non-woven laminates offer exciting possibilities, particularly for pilots prioritizing lightweight and durable configurations.

[JoeF]

Talking further to the AI assistant:
Without repeating your good responses on those reachable sail solutions, please do your best to reach out to the very frontiers of arts and describe what might be coming down the material pipe that would kiss the TPHG world best someday.

Future Materials for TPHG: The Cutting Edge of Innovation

The Tiny Packed Hang Glider (TPHG) represents a design challenge that could benefit immensely from advancements in material sciences. Let’s explore some potential materials and technologies from the very frontiers of innovation that might redefine the possibilities for ultra-light, high-performance sail solutions.

1. Graphene-Enhanced Laminates

• What is it? Graphene, a single layer of carbon atoms, integrated into laminates for extreme strength, flexibility, and conductivity.
• Potential Benefits:
  
  • Unmatched Strength-to-Weight Ratio: Graphene’s strength exceeds that of steel, enabling lighter and thinner materials.
  • Self-Healing Capabilities: Advanced coatings could enable automatic repair of micro-tears during flight.
  • Electrothermal Regulation: Conductive properties could allow active thermal control for aerodynamic fine-tuning.
• Suitability for TPHG: Ideal for creating sails with exceptional durability and adaptability in ultra-light designs.

2. Programmable Matter Fabrics

• What is it? Materials capable of altering their physical properties (shape, stiffness, texture) in response to electrical or environmental stimuli.
• Potential Benefits:
  
  • Shape Memory: Sails could dynamically adjust their camber and tension to optimize performance in changing wind conditions.
  • Self-Packing: Materials that “remember” their compact form could simplify storage and transportation.
  • Enhanced Longevity: Responsive adjustments could minimize stress points, reducing wear over time.
• Suitability for TPHG: The ultimate in adaptability, these fabrics could allow one glider to excel in multiple flight profiles.

3. Bioengineered Spider Silk Composites

• What is it? Artificial spider silk combined with advanced polymers for a renewable, ultra-lightweight material.
• Potential Benefits:
  
  • Unparalleled Elasticity and Strength: Provides flexibility for folding and resistance to tearing under tension.
  • Eco-Friendly Production: Sustainable and biodegradable, ideal for environmentally conscious designs.
  • Extreme Lightweight: Could rival Dyneema for mass efficiency while offering superior folding and packing characteristics.
• Suitability for TPHG: A game-changer for creating ultra-light, high-performance wings with minimal environmental impact.

4. Aerogel-Infused Films

• What is it? Ultralight films impregnated with aerogels for exceptional thermal insulation and structural stiffness.
• Potential Benefits:
  
  • Thermal Stability: Maintains performance across extreme temperatures.
  • Featherlight Structure: Aerogels are among the lightest materials, minimizing overall glider weight.
  • Impact Resistance: Absorbs energy effectively, reducing damage from accidental impacts.
• Suitability for TPHG: Particularly valuable for high-altitude gliders exposed to extreme conditions.

5. Carbon Nanotube Fabrics

• What is it? Fabrics woven with carbon nanotubes for superior tensile strength and conductivity.
• Potential Benefits:
  
  • Near-Zero Stretch: Maintains precise airfoil shapes under extreme tension.
  • Integrated Sensors: Nanotubes could enable smart sails that monitor and adjust performance in real time.
  • Ultra-Durable: Resists UV, abrasion, and environmental degradation for long-term use.
• Suitability for TPHG: Perfect for extreme performance and safety-focused applications in advanced designs.

Vision for TPHG
As these materials progress from the lab to real-world applications, the TPHG could evolve into an ultralight, self-adjusting, and environmentally sustainable aircraft, blurring the line between art and engineering.