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Re: My Last Flight (accident report) - and My First One Sinc

Postby wingspan33 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:31 pm

Bob,

I'd go with "Down Loadable Files". In the future, such files could be placed in a couple new "Extension Groups" such as "GPS Track Logs" (.gdb) and "Googe Earth Files" (.kml or .kmz). There are other GPS file formats so others may have to be added with time.

Also, you asked if I could post the Google Earth images (of my not so good flight) with the color coding set for speed rather than altitude. Take a look below. I've taken two screen capture images from different angles. This allows for a better perspective on the situation.

The purple parts are the high speed sections. The last one shows up just before my not-so-good-landing and, before that, in a small section when I'm nicely above the hill (turning down wind). Typically, my higher ground speeds fit with down wind (southerly) headings and the slowest ground speeds fit with northerly headings. This all makes sense since the day's winds were blowing from the north. But then, that last high speed section (52 mph ground speed at about 100 feet high!?) seems to fit only if I was in a W - WSW air flow. Yikes, where did that come from? Something quirky happened.
Attachments
Mossy 6-13-12 - GE - speed 2 sm.jpg
Mossy 6-13-12 - GE - speed 2 sm.jpg (111.1 KiB) Viewed 5017 times
Mossy 6-13-12 - GE - speed sm.jpg
Mossy 6-13-12 - GE - speed sm.jpg (127.29 KiB) Viewed 5017 times
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Re: My Last Flight (accident report) - and My First One Sinc

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:52 pm

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but my first impression was that it looks like a really cool site and seeing your tracks racing all over the ridge really makes me want to come out and fly there some time. :) :thumbup: :clap:

How big are the files? Are they under a few megabytes? If so, maybe you could email me a few examples and I could use them to get the uploads working. That would save us from me saying, "OK, I think I've really got it fixed this time, can you try uploading it again ... for the 53rd time?".

Thanks!!
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Re: My Last Flight (accident report) - and My First One Sinc

Postby wingspan33 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:47 pm

Bob,

Mossy Bank is an interesting site. The hill overall, is about 500 ft high. The launch is a (small - not too tall) cliff at 410 ft level. There is a nice top landing field as well. Right now the typical valley LZ is planted in corn and that played a part in my landing (across and) along the river. This was my forth landing in that area and every previous landing was fine.

I've had one of my most amazing flights at this site. I took off, lost 100 feet in a pass or two along the ridge (down to 300 ft AGL). Then, just before deciding it was time to set up my approach, I caught a solid core that I took up to cloud base at over 7,000 feet AGL. And it only took something like 15 minutes to get there.

There is also a pair of mating bald eagles that nest in a tree in the typical LZ. On a good day a pilot may get to fly with one of them.

But enough of the sales pitch for Mossy Bank.

The GPS (.gdb) files, . . . are quite small. They are basically text files with a list of location data - like what I posted above a couple messages ago. They are in the order of 120 kb or less. The Google Earth files (.klm) are larger but still only around 500 kb. It also depends on how long your flight is and how you have your sample rate set. An 8 hour flight will result in larger files. lol

I could send you a couple copies of each type, if you like. And so you know, .klz files are a compressed (or zipped) version of .klm files. I'd also expect that people with a GPS other than Garmin will have different file formats. The .GDB format stands for Garmin Data Base .
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Re: My Last Flight (accident report) - and My First One Sinc

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:29 pm

wingspan33 wrote:Mossy Bank is an interesting site. The hill overall, is about 500 ft high.


500 feet is about as high as the highest part of the Fort Funston ridge (I think they call that area "Westlake"). That's a respectable ridge, and the bald eagles sound pretty cool. : )

I'd say go ahead and send me one sample of each kind of file that you have. I'll try to adjust the settings to see if I can make them stick. There's not too much to lose, and it would be great to be able to share those kinds of files. Please send them to my email address at bobkuczewski@gmail.com.

Thanks!!
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Re: My Last Flight (accident report) - and My First One Sinc

Postby wingspan33 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:57 pm

A low hill doesn't have to be a poor flying site, that's for sure. But it does contrast a bit compared to launching just above 3,000 feet over the valley in Telluride. Then there was this flight I took off of Mt Elden near Hawthorne, NV. Launch was at or around 5,000 ft over the LZ next to Walker Lake. Talk about having your sense of scale messed with! At Mt Elden I lost 2,000 feet, began to plan my landing strategy and then thought, . . . I'm still at 3,000 ft! That's 3 times higher than the site I regularly flew back east. I realized I could relax and enjoy the flight for a while longer. lol

Mainly posting to tell you I sent you those files. Let us know if, or when, we can begin to upload them into a post.
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Re: My Last Flight (accident report) - and My First One Sinc

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:05 pm

I think I was able to attach the .kmz file and the .gdb file. Please check them to see if they uploaded OK.

But it gave me an error with the .kml file saying:

   "The upload was rejected because the uploaded file was identified as a possible attack vector."

That file (.kml) contains XML (which looks like HTML), and maybe the forum designers were afraid that the file could somehow be used to break into the the forum?

Are the .kmz and .gdb files sufficient for now? Please check them and let me know!!
Attachments
H-Port 5-31-12 A.gdb
(19.29 KiB) Downloaded 349 times
H-Port 5-31 GE zipped.kmz
(23.2 KiB) Downloaded 355 times
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Re: My Last Flight (accident report) - and My First One Sinc

Postby wingspan33 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:48 pm

Looks good Bob! That is the flight track log I sent.

The .gdb file is viewable in Garmin's Map Source software. A .gdb file can also be converted to a .kml or .kmz file at a site called "GPS Visualizer" It can be found here - http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/map_input?form=googleearth .

So, posting a Garmin flight track log can allow another member here to create their own Google Earth (GE) file of the flight in question. But it can save some effort to have the GE .kmz file in the first place.

Another benefit of "GPS Visualizer" is that it can convert multiple GPS file formats into a GE compatible file.
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Re: My Last Flight (accident report) - and My First One Sinc

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:01 pm

Very cool Scott!!

Now try to get that kind of responsive service on some of those "other" forums.      :srofl:
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Re: My Last Flight (accident report) - and My First One Sinc

Postby Bill Cummings » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:48 pm

732 6/13/2012 4:53:35 PM 1311 ft 86 ft 0:00:02 29 mph 272° true N42 19.477 W77 18.492
733 6/13/2012 4:53:37 PM 1294 ft 93 ft 0:00:02 32 mph 263° true N42 19.477 W77 18.511
734 6/13/2012 4:53:39 PM 1279 ft 92 ft 0:00:02 31 mph 260° true N42 19.475 W77 18.532
735 6/13/2012 4:53:41 PM 1268 ft 88 ft 0:00:02 30 mph 273° true N42 19.473 W77 18.552
736 6/13/2012 4:53:43 PM 1260 ft 82 ft 0:00:02 28 mph 338° true N42 19.473 W77 18.571
737 6/13/2012 4:53:45 PM 1224 ft 152 ft0:00:02 52 mph 64° true N42 19.486 W77 18.578
738 6/13/2012 4:53:47 PM 1175 ft 138 ft0:00:02 47 mph 62° true N42 19.497 W77 18.548
739 6/13/2012 4:53:49 PM 1182 ft 89 ft 0:00:02 30 mph 347° true N42 19.507 W77 18.521
740 6/13/2012 4:53:51 PM 1139 ft 32 ft 0:00:02 11 mph 291° true N42 19.522 W77 18.525
741 6/13/2012 4:53:53 PM 1126 ft 12 ft 0:00:02 4 mph 239° true N42 19.523 W77 18.532
742 6/13/2012 4:53:55 PM 1128 ft 5 ft 0:00:02 2 mph 228° true N42 19.522 W77 18.534
743 6/13/2012 4:53:57 PM 1128 ft 4 ft 0:00:02 1.3 mph 226° true N42 19.522 W77 18.535
744 6/13/2012 4:53:59 PM 1128 ft 4 ft 0:00:02 1.3 mph 169° true N42 19.521 W77 18.536
745 6/13/2012 4:54:01 PM 1128 ft 7 ft 0:00:02 2 mph 138° true N42 19.521 W77 18.535

My math may be fuzzy but I figure you had about 41 mph airspeed pulled on. (@ 1,224’ msl?, with a 10-11 mph wind from the westerly direction.
31 mph ground speed into the wind and 52 mph ground speed downwind. (064 degrees).
Your downwind leg speed over ground goes from 52 mph to 47 mph resulting in a 7 foot gain in altitude. This could be a stick thermal or could well have been caused by the overpass upwind.
I’m thinking your airspeed was now 34mph. Giving you a over ground speed of 30 mph in the crosswind-upwind leg of 347 degrees track.
If the wind on the ground was zero or slightly more that could have put your left tip during the turn, onto track 291 degrees, with less than 34 mph.
Do I need to go back to math class?
Good job in fighting your way back into the prevailing wind. Down wind is usually brutal.
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Re: My Last Flight (accident report) - and My First One Sinc

Postby wingspan33 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:45 am

Thanks for the reply Bill!

I think your analysis is close to right on. What I originally did was simply look to see (on the flight's GPS track log) what I could not remember because of the jarring my head took. I solidly remember planing a different and specific approach for my landing. However, the GPS track log revealed that I altered that approach. I have no memory of why I did so.

I also noted that during my final few seconds in the air, I was losing altitude much faster than should have been expected. The track graphic in Google Earth revealed that clearly. In fact, I lost 85 ft. in about 4 second's time.

But at the same time that I was losing that altitude, my ground speed was indeed quite swift. And conditions weren't such that I had much chance to have encountered a 25 - 30 mph westerly tail wind (which would have resulted in a stall - which is one way to explain the quick 85 ft loss in altitude). That leaves mechanical turbulence and I suspect some form of rotor induced downward air flow. This could have come from a freaky cross and down wind air flow off the hill, or a powerful thermal ripping off just beyond my area of the sky. This last situation could have drawn air downward from around the area surrounding the base of the thermal release "zone" - resulting in the apparent serious sink that I believe I must have been encountering.

As to the 7 foot altitude gain, I hadn't noticed that. But where that was, was between the transition from the ground speed reading of 47 mph and the next reading of 30 mph. Note, that at the same time that I am gaining a small amount of positive altitude, I am also "losing" 17 mph of ground speed. This is because I was involved in my turn back toward the west. With my excess(?) ground speed (52 - 47 mph) just before this point, I would guess that the 7 foot "bounce" could have been connected with a quick transition back into a head wind (a stick thermal without having to move the stick).

But it could also have been associated with a change in the very local air mass at this lower altitude. It may have been denser (cooler?) or the air might have been "bouncing" off the ground after down washing as a sinking air mass. I have very clearly encountered this kind of effect in the past, but it has always been within 10 - 15 feet of the ground. So, I think that it is acceptable to bet on my slight altitude gain as being the result of the transition from going fast down wind to swinging that gathered kinetic energy around back into the wind. An effective "stick thermal".

Also, in doing some subtraction involving my altitude loss between (2 second interval) GPS readings, I get -

(During the final moments of my flight)

- 36 ft
- 49 ft
+ 7 ft
- 43 ft
- 13 ft

In 10 seconds (on a topless wing) I lost 141 feet of altitude.

In another 10 second sample during my (sinking - not soaring) glide about a minute before landing, I lost only 38 feet.

There was something unusual going on during that last section of my flight. Some kind of seriously sinking air, is probably a good guess.
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