Sara AKA redsagebear

[Bob Kuczewski]

OK, how does this look? I've set the default avatar for all unknown (anonymous) users to the following:

unknown_user_003.png (4.28 KiB) Viewed 17165 times

Do you think that conveys what needs to be said while still preserving free speech?

Any comments from mary947, bobmiles20, hanahadley92, rachel8956, cristasosa, or emily84?

Any comments from anyone else?

[Free]

On one hand, I believe the right to free speech should not be abridged.

I'm all for free speech. Anonymous smears on the internet are not free speech.
If someone wants to smear someone else by name the price they pay to do so would be to identify themselves in some verifiable way. If what they have to say is important enough for the world to hear then they need to verify who they are and what interest they have in the matter that makes it necessary for them to denigrate others by name. It's not right to yell fire in a theater just because it's dark.

On the other hand, free speech should come with a penalty for lying or smearing ... in other words, the offender should lose credibility.

Anonymous posters have no credibility to begin with. Allowing them to post whatever they want in the name of free speech is giving them credibility that they have not earned.

Sara is real. You have met her. She is trying to do something beneficial in the community. She will be forced to face people in the community. It is not right to give the power to destroy her credibility to anonymous jackals that have not steped up to the plate as she has. These attacks all read the same as if they have come from one source.

You won't see them standing up to identify themselves. What they have come here to do is not free speech. I would not be surprised if Sara may read this line of tripe and say to hell with any more to do with the hang gliding community if this is the bed of coals that she has to walk on. I wouldn't blame her as I personally have pulled back contributions to the hang gliding community for actions of a similar vein. For every action there is a re-action. Protecting 'rights' of make believe people at the expense of real people is not a virtue.

If it's good enough to say it should be good enough to stand behind.
One thing worse than cowardly anonymous smears in public is cowardly smears by known people via the gossip grapevine. The world isn't what we want it to be. There are plenty sick puppies in our midst and life isn't 'Leave it To Beaver'. Ha! It's more a 'Leave it to Bevis and Butthead' and you see where that leaves you!

Cowards need to be called out.. and called out repeatedly.
Bevis and Butthead (you know who you are) come clean and quit your lying.
At some point, weak cowardly lies eventually turn into pure evil. It's a dark path you have embarked on.
What starts out as a bit of gossipy lie turns into a vicious web of lies that bind you in a pact with the devil.
Please turn around and change your direction before it's too late.. for your own good.

My vote is to remove the offending posts.. or the whole thread.. and if the anonymous posters feel cheated of their right to free speech then they can come back with proper ID and re-state their case and their reasons they feel it is necessary to smear a known member of the community. Fair enough.

Enough of my ramble. The good thing about this conversation is that only a few people are seeing it.
The bad thing about this conversation is that most people that see it will read only what they want and go away very misinformed by the vicious smear.

Letting these anonymous words stand is not protecting free speech, IMO.
I think a little protection for your known friend is more important.

Warren

[Bob Kuczewski]

Warren,

We are very fortunate to have you on this forum. Thanks for everything you've said here.

I'm still struggling with this one.

During my long struggle at Torrey, I got a lot of anonymous information from people who feared retaliation from Jebb. They had legitimate fears and my job would have been much harder without their anonymous contributions. So I see value in being able to post anonymously - even when that post is critical of others. We're therefore challenged to find a way to reap the benefits of anonymous posting while removing the effects of potential abuse. I'm still working on that, and any comments are welcome.

The problem with just removing these posts is that it puts this forum on a slippery slope toward what we've seen on hanggliding.org, the Oz Report Forum, and the HGAA. Where do we draw the line? Furthermore, could I really trust myself not to abuse this power? Davis couldn't resist abusing his power, and Jack couldn't either. Should I think I'm so much better that I wouldn't start removing posts that were critical of me or my friends? Using that power - even once - puts myself (and this forum) on the slippery slope toward what we've tried not to become. I'm hesitant to do that until we've come up with some process or procedure to ensure that it isn't abused.

So as I said, I'm still struggling with this one. I don't know the answer yet, and I don't want to make a hasty decision that sets a bad precedent. So I'll continue to struggle and listen to all sides. Free speech on this forum ensures that I'll be forced to do that.

Thanks again Warren. It's an honor to have your well-considered opinions on this forum.

Bob Kuczewski

[derk]

I agree with Bob: "Sometimes you can learn a lot about a person by looking at those who oppose them"

It's kind of silly to even answer these posts. So, let me just say, as a long time resident and HG pilot of this area and a person who knows Sara and Kayte: all these posts contain nothing but lies!!!!!
See this thread:
http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=217&sid=a91c52e1162afedfb8f86332a0cab073

[Bob Kuczewski]

Good comments all around. Thanks to everyone.

Here's where I think we are in Lakeview ...

It's clear that some small-minded person just doesn't like Sara, and as a result, they don't like the Lakeview Hawks. "Boo hoo"

It's also clear that a hang gliding and/or paragliding club in the Lakeview area would be positive for both the sports and the local community.

So I suggest that we just leave the haters behind and focus on building a club that's positive and uplifting for the sports and its members. If we do that well, then it will stand on its own merits. That's the high road.

I should also say that I've been very very encouraged by the SW Texas Hang Gliders club in Leakey Texas. I believe their town is even smaller than Lakeview, and they don't have nearly as many foot-launch sites. But what they lack in size and sites, they more than make up for in their positive "can do" attitude. I've been to two of their meetings so far, and there's been lots of good discussions about how to promote the sport, work with the local community, and just become a positive force for hang gliding. Even if Leakey had no hang gliding at all, I'd be proud to be a member of their club and just hang out with those good people. That's what I think the Lakeview / Warner Mountain club should do.

Let's ignore this small band of haters and move forward by building a positive group that will make us all proud to be members.

[Dominicbup]

LOL LOL LOL

[ToorieArtetle]

I found this site using google.com. And i want to thank you for your work. You have done really excellent site. Great work, great site! Cheers!

Sorry for offtopic

[Bob Kuczewski]

This topic has been in storage out of public view for many years.

This topic contains a series of ugly attacks on Sara Martin back in 2010. The attacks appeared to come from a number of "users" who were discovered to have the same IP address. The town of Lakeview is extremely small, so it might have been possible (though highly unlikely) that IP addresses were shared for some other reason.

Sara faced many challenges and it's been reported that she ended up taking her own life a number of years after this topic had concluded. It was in this topic (back in 2010) that the U.S. Hawks policy against anonymous attacks was established.

I am posting to this long locked topic to draw attention to the strong influence that Warren's comments have played in establishing the U.S. Hawks policy on anonymous attacks. Please read Warren's comments and appreciate his early leadership on this topic.

Thank you Warren for all that you've done for the U.S. Hawks since our founding in 2010.