I read with interest the discord the Lakeview Hawks have caused in Lakeview Oregon. Seem a bit odd that there would be resistance to a new club or ideas that were contrary to the 'established' group. The Lakeview group had no qualms about including a site guide on their Lakeview website for Hat Creek Rim (HCR), a Northern California site. Unlike Lakeview sites, HCR is closely regulated by the USDA Forest Service and had a well-established club operating this USHPA insured site per USDA Forest Service requirements, this included a USDA Forest Service Special Use Permit.
Without as much as a word to the group managing HCR, the Lakeview group decided to expand their territory and write and promote their own site guide for HCR - didn't even have the courtesy of providing their readers a link to the official website.
So, I guess that old saying that 'what goes around comes around' hits close to home here.
Phil
Poetic Justice
Poetic Justice
by BigBird » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:56 am
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BigBird - Contributor
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Re: Poetic Justice
by Bob Kuczewski » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:27 am
Hi Phil,
The Lakeview Hawks was a sad story. I'll try to condense it, but you can read the details throughout this forum.
The Torrey Hawks has been a great club to represent hang gliding interests at Torrey Pines. It brought pilots together to do many good things for the sport. So when I visited Lakeview, I thought a club would be good for them as well.
At that time, I was on good terms with Mark Webber, and he introduced me to some of the other local pilots (I can't remember all their names off hand). They were holding one of their fly-in's at the time and I had a good time flying with them.
After one of my flights, I was waiting for the bags to be driven down, and a young woman was in the LZ with a clear interest in hang gliding. She had taken a few tandem flights with David Beardslee (our Torrey Hawks VP) in the past, and her enthusiasm was strong. So while we were waiting, I asked if she was interested in running with my Falcon. She jumed at the chance, so we walked up the very shallow slope and I gave her a few demonstrations. Then I gave her my helmet (no harness, not hooked in), and she gave it a try. Now I've done this with many people, and you can pretty quickly tell if the person has "the flying gene" or not by their reaction. Most will say thanks, and walk away. But this young woman wanted to do it again and again and again. With every run she got a little better at controlling the glider, and her enthusiasm was plain on her face.
Eventually the truck pulled up, and we ended up going our separate ways. But later in the event, there were a bunch of us sitting around the campfire, and I made the suggestion that they should consider a club in Lakeview. I pointed out the benefits that the Torrey Hawks have gotten in terms of bringing pilots together. The young woman thought it was a great idea and I didn't hear any real objections from anyone else around the fire. So that's when the Lakeview Hawks were formed.
I left to return to California a day or so later, but when I got back to San Diego, I began hearing "rumblings" about dissatisfaction with the young woman and the whole idea of the Lakeview Hawks. My opinion was that a club was good, but that those who wanted to have a club should join it, and those who didn't want a club could certainly live without joining it. The young woman liked the idea, and I encouraged her. But some of the folks who didn't like the idea ... well you can read for yourself on these pages.
So I am very sad that what started out as a wonderful idea - full of enthusiasm and optimism - ended up in the mess you see on this forum.
The Lakeview Hawks was a sad story. I'll try to condense it, but you can read the details throughout this forum.
The Torrey Hawks has been a great club to represent hang gliding interests at Torrey Pines. It brought pilots together to do many good things for the sport. So when I visited Lakeview, I thought a club would be good for them as well.
At that time, I was on good terms with Mark Webber, and he introduced me to some of the other local pilots (I can't remember all their names off hand). They were holding one of their fly-in's at the time and I had a good time flying with them.
After one of my flights, I was waiting for the bags to be driven down, and a young woman was in the LZ with a clear interest in hang gliding. She had taken a few tandem flights with David Beardslee (our Torrey Hawks VP) in the past, and her enthusiasm was strong. So while we were waiting, I asked if she was interested in running with my Falcon. She jumed at the chance, so we walked up the very shallow slope and I gave her a few demonstrations. Then I gave her my helmet (no harness, not hooked in), and she gave it a try. Now I've done this with many people, and you can pretty quickly tell if the person has "the flying gene" or not by their reaction. Most will say thanks, and walk away. But this young woman wanted to do it again and again and again. With every run she got a little better at controlling the glider, and her enthusiasm was plain on her face.
Eventually the truck pulled up, and we ended up going our separate ways. But later in the event, there were a bunch of us sitting around the campfire, and I made the suggestion that they should consider a club in Lakeview. I pointed out the benefits that the Torrey Hawks have gotten in terms of bringing pilots together. The young woman thought it was a great idea and I didn't hear any real objections from anyone else around the fire. So that's when the Lakeview Hawks were formed.
I left to return to California a day or so later, but when I got back to San Diego, I began hearing "rumblings" about dissatisfaction with the young woman and the whole idea of the Lakeview Hawks. My opinion was that a club was good, but that those who wanted to have a club should join it, and those who didn't want a club could certainly live without joining it. The young woman liked the idea, and I encouraged her. But some of the folks who didn't like the idea ... well you can read for yourself on these pages.
So I am very sad that what started out as a wonderful idea - full of enthusiasm and optimism - ended up in the mess you see on this forum.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
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Re: Poetic Justice HARDLY
by flystraw » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:06 am
Poetic Justice not really. I am not sure if everyone knew that Sara took her own life back in the summer of 2013. Sara definitely had some challenges in her life and most compassionate people (like BobK, Ralph H etc) were kind to her. Unfortunately one disgruntled idiot waged an internet campaign against her on hanggliding.org which ended up with a bunch of anonymous, fictitious characters attacking her and her mother in a vicious, incite full and hateful way on this very forum and still resides in the new user forum.
The Lakeview Hawks while instigated by BobK and Sara and constantly ridiculed by our disgruntled idiot, was never on my radar.
My local flying buddy Derk and I decided to start a web site http://lakeviewhanggliding.org as a site guide for the greater Lakeview area as the only one available through the Oregon outback site was hopelessly outdated.
Our goal with this website was to have a guide to the flying in the greater Lakeview area which includes many sites in California. We fly most of these sites regularly.
Phil is incorrect that a group made this site. It was made by Derk and myself. One rule we have is to not be negative about people or groups on our website. There was a very good reason for not informing the group at HCR and not linking to them. That reason was the continual negative tone and rants about other groups and individuals on their website that continue to this day.
Roger
The Lakeview Hawks while instigated by BobK and Sara and constantly ridiculed by our disgruntled idiot, was never on my radar.
My local flying buddy Derk and I decided to start a web site http://lakeviewhanggliding.org as a site guide for the greater Lakeview area as the only one available through the Oregon outback site was hopelessly outdated.
Our goal with this website was to have a guide to the flying in the greater Lakeview area which includes many sites in California. We fly most of these sites regularly.
Phil is incorrect that a group made this site. It was made by Derk and myself. One rule we have is to not be negative about people or groups on our website. There was a very good reason for not informing the group at HCR and not linking to them. That reason was the continual negative tone and rants about other groups and individuals on their website that continue to this day.
Roger
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flystraw - Contributor
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Re: Poetic Justice
by Bob Kuczewski » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:01 pm
Borrowing from James Taylor wrote:
Just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone.
Sara the plans they made put an end to you.
I walked out this morning, and I wrote down this song.
I just can't remember who to send it to.
I've seen fire and I've seen rain.
I've seen sunny days that I thought would never end.
I've seen lonely times when I could not find a friend.
But I always thought that I'd see you again...
Roger, I did not know that Sara took her life until I read your post. I will say that the treatment Sara received at the hands of some people in Lakeview was shameful.
I'll leave it at that for now.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
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Bob Kuczewski - Contributor
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Re: Poetic Justice HARDLY
by Bob Kuczewski » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:14 pm
Roger,
Sara started the Lakeview Hawks in July of 2010, and their club's forum was created on August 14th of that same year (2010).
You signed up on the US Hawks on January 10th, of 2011, and you posted to the Lakeview Hawks forum that same day. Including your post above, you've made exactly 4 posts to this entire forum in those 3 years.
You (via Derk) registered the domain name "lakeviewhanggliding.org" two days later (January 12th, 2011). On June 24th of 2011 you announced "http://www.lakeviewhanggliding.org/" on the Lakeview Hawks forum (Sara's own club forum). So it's clear that you started your own club and web site after knowing that Sara had already been working on a club for Lakeview.
I am curious why you didn't support Sara and her work on the Lakeview Hawks in all that time. You surely knew about Sara's effort to grow the Lakeview Hawks since you became a member on January 10th, 2011. Why didn't you join with her in building the Lakeview Hawks in all those months (and later years) rather than starting and promoting your own web site and/or club? And why doesn't your web site contain a single link to the Lakeview Hawks?
Were you intentionally snubbing Sara and her efforts all those years ... and to this very day?
Any clarification would be helpful in understanding the situation in that region.
Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski
P.S. Derk was kind enough to give me your phone number yesterday, and I called and left a message with someone at that number (again yesterday). I asked to have you call back, but I haven't heard from you yet, so I decided to post this message.
Sara started the Lakeview Hawks in July of 2010, and their club's forum was created on August 14th of that same year (2010).
You signed up on the US Hawks on January 10th, of 2011, and you posted to the Lakeview Hawks forum that same day. Including your post above, you've made exactly 4 posts to this entire forum in those 3 years.
You (via Derk) registered the domain name "lakeviewhanggliding.org" two days later (January 12th, 2011). On June 24th of 2011 you announced "http://www.lakeviewhanggliding.org/" on the Lakeview Hawks forum (Sara's own club forum). So it's clear that you started your own club and web site after knowing that Sara had already been working on a club for Lakeview.
I am curious why you didn't support Sara and her work on the Lakeview Hawks in all that time. You surely knew about Sara's effort to grow the Lakeview Hawks since you became a member on January 10th, 2011. Why didn't you join with her in building the Lakeview Hawks in all those months (and later years) rather than starting and promoting your own web site and/or club? And why doesn't your web site contain a single link to the Lakeview Hawks?
Were you intentionally snubbing Sara and her efforts all those years ... and to this very day?
Any clarification would be helpful in understanding the situation in that region.
Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski
P.S. Derk was kind enough to give me your phone number yesterday, and I called and left a message with someone at that number (again yesterday). I asked to have you call back, but I haven't heard from you yet, so I decided to post this message.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
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Bob Kuczewski - Contributor
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Re: Poetic Justice
by SamKellner » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:42 pm
What a bummer about Sara 
Southwest Texas Hang Gliders
US Hawks Hang Gliding Assn.
Chapter #4
US Hawks Hang Gliding Assn.
Chapter #4
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SamKellner - Contributor
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Re: Poetic Justice
by Bob Kuczewski » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:49 pm
SamKellner wrote:What a bummer about Sara
It's always sad that someone is gone, but when they take their own life it tells us how much they suffered when they were alive.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
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Bob Kuczewski - Contributor
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Re: Poetic Justice
by flystraw » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:11 pm
Hi Bob
Thanks for the chronology of my four posts. As you point out I do not often post to the public hang gliding forums. One of the reasons is that here I am making a post where I feel like I am having to defend myself from some insinuations which are totally unsubstantiated in my opinion. I felt the title Poetic Justice with the chain of events involving Sara was an innocent misnomer and wondered if you and other folks did not know of the sad ending to the whole sorry tale which was far from Poetic Justice.
My first post was in total support of Sara who was being treated to a lot of hate posts on this forum, and yes the domain was registered two days later as we wanted to make a better site guide for the area. The second post as you noted came in June announcing our new website. Only a a web site not a club! I announced the new website on your (and Sara,s) forum. Lakeview is about 68 road miles from my house so while I fly to Lakeview often during the flying season I rarely drive there for social visits. My third post was the announcement for the Lakeview Umpteenth Annual fly in. My fourth post was the one you are asking me about and this is my fifth post.
So to be clear, The website we made was just an informative site guide to the area and not a CLUB. I did not actively support Sara in the town of Lakeview as I do not live there. I felt that my first post supported Sara and that you are reading into it that because I started a website, that was not supporting her? The website contains no links to clubs or hang gliding websites.
You ask "Were you intentionally snubbing Sara and her efforts all those years ... and to this very day?" My answer is to that is no. Your perception of our website being a club, and that my inaction in trying to get members for Sara,s club constitutes snubbing means we perceive things differently.
For clarification on what is happening in the region. I will be at my local town Alturas again this year in June at the Modoc Expo with a glider and simulator and also helping to promote the Lakeview Chambers Umpteenth Fly in in Lakeview while there. The town of Lakeview now has one active pilot. I will hopefully be flying all over the area.
Best of Lift and good luck with your current Torrey fiasco.
Roger
I
Thanks for the chronology of my four posts. As you point out I do not often post to the public hang gliding forums. One of the reasons is that here I am making a post where I feel like I am having to defend myself from some insinuations which are totally unsubstantiated in my opinion. I felt the title Poetic Justice with the chain of events involving Sara was an innocent misnomer and wondered if you and other folks did not know of the sad ending to the whole sorry tale which was far from Poetic Justice.
My first post was in total support of Sara who was being treated to a lot of hate posts on this forum, and yes the domain was registered two days later as we wanted to make a better site guide for the area. The second post as you noted came in June announcing our new website. Only a a web site not a club! I announced the new website on your (and Sara,s) forum. Lakeview is about 68 road miles from my house so while I fly to Lakeview often during the flying season I rarely drive there for social visits. My third post was the announcement for the Lakeview Umpteenth Annual fly in. My fourth post was the one you are asking me about and this is my fifth post.
So to be clear, The website we made was just an informative site guide to the area and not a CLUB. I did not actively support Sara in the town of Lakeview as I do not live there. I felt that my first post supported Sara and that you are reading into it that because I started a website, that was not supporting her? The website contains no links to clubs or hang gliding websites.
You ask "Were you intentionally snubbing Sara and her efforts all those years ... and to this very day?" My answer is to that is no. Your perception of our website being a club, and that my inaction in trying to get members for Sara,s club constitutes snubbing means we perceive things differently.
For clarification on what is happening in the region. I will be at my local town Alturas again this year in June at the Modoc Expo with a glider and simulator and also helping to promote the Lakeview Chambers Umpteenth Fly in in Lakeview while there. The town of Lakeview now has one active pilot. I will hopefully be flying all over the area.
Best of Lift and good luck with your current Torrey fiasco.
Roger
I
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Re: Poetic Justice
by Bob Kuczewski » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:37 pm
Thanks for the response Roger.
Both you and Derk did indeed offer posts of support to Sara, and I'm sure they were of some comfort to her. But nothing you've said explains why you didn't join to help build a club based on fairness for all ... including Sara. Instead, you went off and created another Lakeview site (even though you say you don't live there). That just doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense that you started an entire topic on Sara's club forum to advertise your site, but you couldn't even include a single reciprocal link to Sara's club in return. What could that have hurt? Were you being pressured by anyone in the Lakeview Chamber of Commerce? By anyone else?
Sara needed - really needed - someone local to stand with her. Why couldn't you have posted everything you put on your site on Sara's forum as well? Just copy and paste it. That would have been a huge boost to her and her sense of self worth ... especially in the face of all the nay-sayers.
I am still thinking this all through, and I haven't reached any final conclusions in my mind yet. But what you did with your LakviewHangGliding web site clearly undermined the sincere and ongoing effort that Sara was making to build a small hang gliding club in Lakeview. I can't believe that never crossed your mind.
Both you and Derk did indeed offer posts of support to Sara, and I'm sure they were of some comfort to her. But nothing you've said explains why you didn't join to help build a club based on fairness for all ... including Sara. Instead, you went off and created another Lakeview site (even though you say you don't live there). That just doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense that you started an entire topic on Sara's club forum to advertise your site, but you couldn't even include a single reciprocal link to Sara's club in return. What could that have hurt? Were you being pressured by anyone in the Lakeview Chamber of Commerce? By anyone else?
Sara needed - really needed - someone local to stand with her. Why couldn't you have posted everything you put on your site on Sara's forum as well? Just copy and paste it. That would have been a huge boost to her and her sense of self worth ... especially in the face of all the nay-sayers.
I am still thinking this all through, and I haven't reached any final conclusions in my mind yet. But what you did with your LakviewHangGliding web site clearly undermined the sincere and ongoing effort that Sara was making to build a small hang gliding club in Lakeview. I can't believe that never crossed your mind.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
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Bob Kuczewski - Contributor
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Re: Poetic Justice
by flystraw » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:11 am
My sixth and final post. Sorry that I was the informer of bad news.
I now seem to be taken to task for starting "another" website that is primarily a site guide as opposed to this website that has no site information and is a forum. I did start a new topic to advertise our website on your/Sara's forum I also started entire new topics on hanggliding.org, Sonoma wings , wings of Rogallo and Fellow Feathers and no reciprocal links to any of them. I was hoping to get the word out about a new site guide that would help pilots visiting the area. As for the idea that the Chamber of Commerce or anybody else was pressuring us well that is just ridiculous.
You say "But nothing you've said explains why you didn't join to help build a club based on fairness for all" I already belong to 2 Free Flight clubs. Unfortunately I think this club you are talking about consisted of you and Sara at the time and the only reason I even knew about it was from the rantings found here http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18722 The 2 active pilots living in Lakeview were not joining. While I would have supported Sara in many ways in her Hang Gliding quest, driving 68 miles one way to Lakeview to join a club, not quite yet existing, was something I elected not to do. This may not explain things to you but it is fact, and it is the way I see it.
Why could I not have posted everything on our site to Sara's forum you ask, Well our website is an informative site guide http://lakeviewhanggliding.org with many pages and this website is a forum. In hindsight anything that would have boosted Sara's self worth would have been wonderful. Unfortunately the Nay Sayer and the fictitious anonymous folks were extremely vile and I certainly tried at that time to curtail that in support of Sara and her mother.
Anyway in conclusion. I certainly did not start an informative site guide website to undermine any efforts that Sara was making in Lakeview to build a small hang gliding club. I have been residing in this area since 1992. I have flown all the sites in our site guide and felt the guide written by Dave Baleria back in 1990 http://www.oregonsoutback.com/todo/hanglide/index.html was out dated and that pilots would be well served to have some kind of guide to the area
Bob I get the feeling that you do not approve of me making a website or starting a topic on your site to advertise it. I apologize and will refrain from further posting.
Roger
I now seem to be taken to task for starting "another" website that is primarily a site guide as opposed to this website that has no site information and is a forum. I did start a new topic to advertise our website on your/Sara's forum I also started entire new topics on hanggliding.org, Sonoma wings , wings of Rogallo and Fellow Feathers and no reciprocal links to any of them. I was hoping to get the word out about a new site guide that would help pilots visiting the area. As for the idea that the Chamber of Commerce or anybody else was pressuring us well that is just ridiculous.
You say "But nothing you've said explains why you didn't join to help build a club based on fairness for all" I already belong to 2 Free Flight clubs. Unfortunately I think this club you are talking about consisted of you and Sara at the time and the only reason I even knew about it was from the rantings found here http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18722 The 2 active pilots living in Lakeview were not joining. While I would have supported Sara in many ways in her Hang Gliding quest, driving 68 miles one way to Lakeview to join a club, not quite yet existing, was something I elected not to do. This may not explain things to you but it is fact, and it is the way I see it.
Why could I not have posted everything on our site to Sara's forum you ask, Well our website is an informative site guide http://lakeviewhanggliding.org with many pages and this website is a forum. In hindsight anything that would have boosted Sara's self worth would have been wonderful. Unfortunately the Nay Sayer and the fictitious anonymous folks were extremely vile and I certainly tried at that time to curtail that in support of Sara and her mother.
Anyway in conclusion. I certainly did not start an informative site guide website to undermine any efforts that Sara was making in Lakeview to build a small hang gliding club. I have been residing in this area since 1992. I have flown all the sites in our site guide and felt the guide written by Dave Baleria back in 1990 http://www.oregonsoutback.com/todo/hanglide/index.html was out dated and that pilots would be well served to have some kind of guide to the area
Bob I get the feeling that you do not approve of me making a website or starting a topic on your site to advertise it. I apologize and will refrain from further posting.
Roger
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