[JoeF]

In different topic on voting, Bob asked about a note I had in that thread. Not to break the topic there too much, I'll start this topic thread.
Re: Voting Test by bobk » Thu May 02, 2013 7:18 pm

"D" as a tease into the future when "floats when wanted" will be triggered to show when pilot wants them, else they will be non-drag collapsed items during soaring. Floats-when-wanted FWW will open landings into ponds, lakes, seas, rivers, creeks, bogs, swimming pools, watering troughs, etc. And flat-water days at Torrey ...

Technical note: Filling struts and wing parts with light foams that are sealed may be part of the hang glider structures. We do not want the hang glider to soak up water. The coming low-low-low density nano-matrix materials will make inroads to hang glider designs, including the flotation aspects of water-landing HGs.

This is a neat idea Joe. Do you know if water landings were ever commonplace anywhere? I know they used to tow up on floats, but for some reason I thought most landings were on the beach. Maybe Bill can chime in as well.

Aqua-kiting in 1950s and 1960s had common water landings using perma floats. The water landings were sometimes while on tow line and sometimes off tow line or while line was relaxed or slack; sometimes the release was deliberate and sometimes by rope break. Later in that game Mike Burns specialized in float landing of his Rogallo Ski Plane; the Florida and Australian flat and delta kiters would use floats for "landing" on the water, often as near to the beach as they could. Currently the same. And in some places deliberate frequent high-altitude release to hang gliding with floats for hang gliding is done in some places.

The FWW (Floats When Wanted) concept is not yet practiced; during HG soaring the floats would not be seen. When the HG pilot wants to "land" on water and wants the floats or on land and wants the floats, then the pilot would trigger the opening of the FWW floats and have the floats available for the landing on land or water.

FWW might open up millions of LZs in land where ponds and lakes have launch points, but mostly trees, except for the water surfaces.
Shores are frequently loaded with people, wharfs, debris, etc., while the open-water surface invites a freedom. But in all cases, one would want to be ready for the water environment for survival. Think wetsuits in the harness situation. Think redundant disconnects. Think survival: water to drink, warmth, fishing. Think of the challenges of wing morphing to raft and boat status.

To open the wide seas to hang gliding will take some further care. To do XC ... in the sense of crossing oceans with a hang glider with multiple "landings" on water will take advancing launching off water surfaces; one direction is launching by self-kiting with resistive water anchors that can be depowered after altitude is gained; another direction is the use of solar and wave and kite power to feed energy to electrical-assist launch of the hang glider.

Safety-critical concerns are ever invited. Waves and sails have a severe challenge when mixing. Wrapping a HG pilot in a mess of cable and sail in a wave almost never turns out well.
Bill Moyes in tandem with Molly with sufboard floats:
http://energykitesystems.net/hgh/moyes/BillandMolly.jpg

Using the John Worth (pre-1963) set of A-frames to control the position of payload and floats:
http://www.jpwinc.com/images/hang_lebanonem.jpg

The Spratt triangle control frame on a float-equipped hang glider:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... glider.jpg

http://www.paradisehanggliding.com/wp-content/uploads/Fullscreencapture11202012124323PM640x360ahuva.jpg

[Bill Cummings]

Good idea Joe with the new thread. I started to compose a long winded "chime in" and then realized it would side track the original thread.
I'm away from my computer now and have time constraints on this one so when I get back to my computer I will chime in a few days from now.

[JoeF]

Related:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=912&p=5836
Avalanche airbags.

[JoeF]

Water-landing glider in Popular Science Monthly, September, 1929, page 56.
History leading to such is invited. And details of the shown, also. thanks, anyone.

[JoeF]

Well, one may stay attached to one's hang glider all the way to a water "landing" or detach from the wing set and become separated from the wing set before continuing to reach the water.
One may design a system that gives one the choice to drop away from the wing set; perhaps one would let the wing find its own way to the water while the the pilot becomes without attached. The detaching pilot might perform the detachment high or low above the water surface and have various choices. If high enough over the water, the detached pilot might plan to use a canopy gliding parachute or a extremely low L/D parachute; or the pilot might have other systems (wing suits, retrorockets, prepared cushions, etc. If low, the pilot detached might plan simply to drop into the water and perhaps swim over to the wing set that found its way to the water surface. The systems might be so designed to allow relaunch off the water surface into the skies by various mechanism (solar power, muscle power, wind power, etc. in various arrangements and balances).

A hang glider carrying, say, 8 persons might swoop and detach one person at a time into the water. The persons might be prepared to swim, to SCUBA, to waterski, to free dive to submarines, etc.

[JoeF]

The following ski-kite glider with pilot hanging from keel on cords in a swing seat in a patent filing in 1960 had potential mechanical option to water "land" using waterski tactics. If the towing boat stopped towing or if the kite line was slacked or detached for any reason, the hang glider could glide to a water landing while the pilot skis on the water surface for while coming to a full stop in the water. Such arts were known before 1960 and were also used after 1960, regarding of the wing type of choice in the operation.

[Bill Cummings]

Hey Joe,
I started out water tow training in Winter Haven Florida with instructor Rich Johnson January 1978.
I never even noticed the difference flying with floats or without floats.
We never were in any speed contests when flying with floats so the parasitic drag didn’t rear it’s ugly head. I would venture to guess that my buddy Don Ray, wife Terry and I had thousands of flights with floats behind the boat tow operation. We never once thought of floats when needed just to eliminate drag.
However when land towing and planning a XC that would take me over water I would always stuff two Kmart beach air mattresses up inside the gliders double surface. Even without flotation a double surface glider will linger at the surface of the water for about ten minutes. We once thought that we would fill the glider tubes with a closed cell foam but never got around to doing that.

We used the Moyes flotation system that I understand were actually floats that were used for nets to catch fish near Finland. They could have been offered with a lifetime warranty since I still have them today. They are extremely durable. If you didn’t exhaust yourself in the process you could probably kill your boss with one of them.
Possibly that never crossed YOUR mind.
I still like the idea of Helium in the two air mattresses up inside the double surface. Or maybe in a bladder that would take up the whole inside of the double surface.

[JoeF]

What a neat share, Bill; many gems; this will go far. Thanks.

1. There is in coming future tech some extremely low-density rebound-from-compression materials that might fill wings to give shape for flight while stowing in small volume, without "inflation" of the direct-pumping sort.

2. Inflatable arts may be simple like a 9" toy latex balloon, or complex with "splinting" tech of airbeam (one company has been trying to coin in a market on the ancient splinting tactics by making gains with the trade name "Tensairity"). Splinting airbeam complexes for strong and reliable low-mass hang glider wings will be part of the option space of coming hang gliders.

3. Gas cartridges for FWW (floats when wanted) is just one of the options for FWW. Another FWW option arrives with rebounding compressibles. Another option family regards internal expanding space frames that shape envelopes upon triggering the expansion while air is sucked through one-way valves. As FWW, one may consider the methods to for full wings or wheels when wanted!

4. You are keen to note that there are some great niche hang glider activities that will keep floatation open and at the ready. You aim at the wing itself being floatable without exterior pontoons. The start of such direction may have been the 1950s with sealing the tubes of the towed low L/D flat kite-gliders to prevent water from entering the tubes; later Rogallo-NASA-Ryan-inspired ski kites reached similar awareness for keeping water out of the tubes, even if not always practiced. Your mention of the closed-cell foam fill is on target. Bladder tech is an option for tube filling. And your mention of helium for the mattresses may apply for bladder-fill for wings and spars, etc. My favorite is to have water-tight ultracapacitors be structurally airframe beams; charge the buggers and use the energy for emergency thrust when wanted in a hybrid hang glider system; charge might come from pilot muscles, wind, solar, kite energy, or grid.

5. For XOHG (cross-ocean hang gliding) one will need to engineer the thermodynamics of the entire system in order to survive the heat needed for surviving; the ocean water and night airs and water can take away needed heat. How will the hang glider pilot survive in multiple launchings and "landings"? Sleep time? Eating along the way (getting nutrients from sea and growing greens on surfaces). Such engineering is not needed in purposeful pond or lake "landings" when land is not far.

6. We note that in 1963 January issue of Popular Mechanics, the Flight Dynamics with Flightsail had that a conversion of the Rogallo-NASA-Ryan-inspired kite-glider could be made for getting a resultant catamaran sailing ship out of the kite-glider. Read the text at the right of the kite-glider:

CatamaranFROMtheKiteGlider.JPG (13.61 KiB) Viewed 7033 times

[Note the "sport" intro of the kite hang glider.] [Note that activity and development occurred BEFORE that January 1963 issue's article; that is, at least 1962 had the intro, tech, awareness, mechanical arts, etc.] [[Note: Looks like Flight Dynamics beat Mike Burns on the calendar for the activity. ]]

============== Memory Lane in Florida: See many memories for Florida, USA: http://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/92573

Credit this photo: State Archives of Florida, Florida Memory, http://floridamemory.com/items/show/92573
(please include photographer's name when noted).

Credit this photo: State Archives of Florida, Florida Memory, http://floridamemory.com/items/show/92575
(please include photographer's name when noted).

==================

Here is a wing that won't readily sink: HPA inflated wing with many fill chambers.

[Bill Cummings]

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Richard%20Kiteman%20Johnson.JPG

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Cypress Gardens post card bought at the gardens Jan 78.

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Richard%20Johnson.JPG

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[JoeF]

Took off of land off a mountain with water skis on his feet; then he landed in water.
1971: Alfio Caronti
http://www.icaro2000.com/About-us/History.htm
Glimpse of the takeoff photo is a bit tricky to see at the link.
Story is welcome, anyone?

Thanks, Bill for the Cypress Gardens glimpse!