[wingspan33]

Elsewhere on this forum is a topic that references the following YouTube video by Jonathan Deitch -



or - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zVI26Vm_uY

The proper way to have responded to this video would have been to go to the YouTube video and enter a (positive or negative) comment. That is not what happened elsewhere on this forum.

But, considering the right approach to these kinds of things, I will include my negative response to Jonathon Deitch's (aka Vicarious Icarus) video involving hang glider pilots flying in or very near clouds.

To anyone who is not aware, this video includes hang glider pilots flying close to clouds which is illegal. By FAA regulations hang glider pilots must stay far enough away from clouds so that powered IFR (instrument flight rules) pilots - who are allowed to fly through clouds - can see and avoid much slower moving hang gliders. The flying shown in this video violates these FAA regulations and was - at the various flight times - an illegal threat to the lives of other licensed powered aviators and their possible passengers.

For reference please think about this video as if it showed an experienced bicyclist riding in S curves on a major highway with heavy fog right to the ground. The difference being that the bike rider would be killed by any vehicle hitting him and the person(s) in the car being unhurt. But, an aircraft hitting an hang glider MIGHT kill the hang glider pilot, but would (99% likely) kill everyone on board the plane - when they hit the ground.

While Vicarious Icarus presents this video as memorial or tribute (or Christmas greeting?) it is, in fact, an illegal demonstration of how A FEW hang glider pilots have no respect for the safety of their fellow aviators. As such it is in deed shameful. Johnathan, you should take this video down. Regardless to the flight times (years ago) it presents illegal flight activities that threaten other people's lives. The FAA can invoke serious civil penalties ($$$) for these types of willful violations of its rules. Watcher Beware!

Is this how another member of the US Hawks approached this issue? No.

It is my opinion that how this other US Hawks member responded is more "off base" that Jonathan Deitch's irresponsible YouTube video. This other US Hawks member's response was also a mish mash of other "stuff". That other "stuff" having no place on a web site the goal of which is to present positive hang gliding related subject matter - and/or subjects that relate favorably to (i.e., promote) the positive character of the typical hang glider pilot.

The idea behind this topic is to give an example of "How to do it". It is obvious that I have not included certain types of comments (political/religious) that can or could be seen as divisive. Those kinds of comments are "off topic" here. They are better presented on other web sites who's focus includes those specific subjects.

[Bob Kuczewski]

I just checked the link you posted and I didn't see your comment. I'm not very familiar with the YouTube commnt system, so maybe I missed it. Do you still see your comment there?

Thanks in advance.

[wingspan33]

I just checked the link you posted and I didn't see your comment. I'm not very familiar with the YouTube commnt system, so maybe I missed it. Do you still see your comment there?

Thanks in advance.

Yes, it's still there. Probably near the bottom of the comment section (below the video). If you're looking with your phone I have no idea what you may or may not see.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Yes, it's still there. Probably near the bottom of the comment section (below the video). If you're looking with your phone I have no idea what you may or may not see.

I sorted the responses by date, and here's what I see at the top:

20200101_211713.png (157.18 KiB) Viewed 5028 times

Those show 10 hours (most recent) and 2 days (next most recent).

What do you see when you sort by date?

[wingspan33]

Bob, I think "Vicarious Icarus" deleted my comment. However, it still shows up when I go to the video. On another PC when I look at the video my comment is not there. But if you check quickly I have re-posted the comment a FEW times, but it could be that it only looks that way to me. I will also be "reporting" the video to YouTube associated with its FAA rule violating content.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bob, I think "Vicarious Icarus" deleted my comment. However, it still shows up when I go to the video. On another PC when I look at the video my comment is not there. But if you check quickly I have re-posted the comment a FEW times, but it could be that it only looks that way to me.

I just checked and I didn't see it. It's possible that the site only shows your comments to you until they are approved by the owner of the video. That would explain why you can only see it when you're logged in as you.

By the way, this is an example of what happens when people are allowed to artificially shape what is presented on social media. The truth is that there are mixed perspectives on that video. But censorship tells the lie that everyone thinks it's wonderful.

[Free]

Elsewhere on this forum is a topic that references the following YouTube video by Jonathan Deitch -

You and I are not giving proper credit to Jonathan Dietch. I misspelled it first. I before e except after c.

Jonathan Dietch wrote: I originally began a secret anthology of my personal FAR 103.23 breaches in concert with Orian Price less than a year before he tragically died. I have since refined the edit and sound track dozens of times trying to get it just right and remove the non-aesthetic elements e.g. no visible background. If anyone feels inclined to disparage the video in a fit protective thinking please don't waste your energy or mine. Following a number of friends and acquaintances who nearly bought it due to cloud carelessness I've stopped engaging in this pastime and now enjoy clouds from a proper distance and leave the heroics to others. Please watch on a decent sized monitor with stereo and above all just relax and enjoy!"

Jonathan's criminal confession encompasses breach of more than FAR 103.23 and I don't think its a waste of energy to bring up in "a fit protective thinking". I think if Jonathan didn't want to deal with repercussions of his 'breach' then the effort wasted was all in the editing and posting, for all the world and oversight agencies to see.
Jonathan wanted attention, and my vote would be to give him top slot on America's Dumbest Criminals.




or - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zVI26Vm_uY

The proper way to have responded to this video would have been to go to the YouTube video and enter a (positive or negative) comment. That is not what happened elsewhere on this forum.

But, considering the right approach to these kinds of things, I will include my negative response to Jonathon Deitch's (aka Vicarious Icarus) video involving hang glider pilots flying in or very near clouds.

To anyone who is not aware, this video includes hang glider pilots flying close to clouds which is illegal. By FAA regulations hang glider pilots must stay far enough away from clouds so that powered IFR (instrument flight rules) pilots - who are allowed to fly through clouds - can see and avoid much slower moving hang gliders. The flying shown in this video violates these FAA regulations and was - at the various flight times - an illegal threat to the lives of other licensed powered aviators and their possible passengers.

For reference please think about this video as if it showed an experienced bicyclist riding in S curves on a major highway with heavy fog right to the ground. The difference being that the bike rider would be killed by any vehicle hitting him and the person(s) in the car being unhurt. But, an aircraft hitting an hang glider MIGHT kill the hang glider pilot, but would (99% likely) kill everyone on board the plane - when they hit the ground.

While Vicarious Icarus presents this video as memorial or tribute (or Christmas greeting?) it is, in fact, an illegal demonstration of how A FEW hang glider pilots have no respect for the safety of their fellow aviators. As such it is in deed shameful. Johnathan, you should take this video down. Regardless to the flight times (years ago) it presents illegal flight activities that threaten other people's lives. The FAA can invoke serious civil penalties ($$$) for these types of willful violations of its rules. Watcher Beware!

I guess you wasted your effort, but not Jonathan Dietch's, in trying to post that. He already warned you not to bother to 'disparage in fit protective.'

Is this how another member of the US Hawks approached this issue?

No.

It is my opinion that how this other US Hawks member responded is more "off base" that Jonathan Deitch's irresponsible YouTube video.

Which action would more likely get people killed? Which would more likely impact the sport in a negative manor?
How is your solution to the situation working out?
Why isn't this venue the proper place to discuss this hang gliding issue?

I believe it is the proper place and so far, it seems to be the only place.
To Jonathan, its a youtube issue and he is a selfie stick youtube star.
I didn't see enough contrition in his confession to let him off the hook because of creative license.
The USHPA legal team needs to get on this right away to show the FAA that they are serious about self regulation.
I can't see that they have any choice other than strong sanctions/expulsion of this criminal scofflaw.

So Scott, you notified youtube of the criminal actions, did you copy the FAA?

[Bill Cummings]

At a certain distance from terrain the distance from clouds is CLEAR OF CLOUDS.
I don’t have enough information to say with any certainty that illegal flying was
being done. I didn’t see any white out flying going on. The ground through a fisheye lens
will be closer than it appears. Guilt by a preponderance of evidence does not meet the
threshold for making a charge of this magnitude.

[Free]

At a certain distance from terrain the distance from clouds is CLEAR OF CLOUDS.
I don’t have enough information to say with any certainty that illegal flying was
being done. I didn’t see any white out flying going on. The ground through a fisheye lens
will be closer than it appears. Guilt by a preponderance of evidence does not meet the
threshold for making a charge of this magnitude.

I don't see any question that Jonathan broke FARs.
First, he admits it:

Jonathan Dietch wrote: I originally began a secret anthology of my personal FAR 103.23 breaches

The rule you refer to as 'Clear of Clouds' is for Class G airspace, 1200 ft. or below, regardless of msl.
This is an exception to the rule accommodation for pilots to transverse Class G airspace under low ceiling conditions.
This is not what J.D. was doing.

Otherwise, the rule for cloud clearance in Class G is 500 feet below.1,000 feet above.2,000 feet horizontal.

I didn’t see any white out flying going on.

That is because of all the editing for youtube entertainment. Whiteout is not good video.

J.D. wrote: I have since refined the edit and sound track dozens of times trying to get it just right and remove the non-aesthetic elements e.g. no visible background.

B.C.: I don’t have enough information to say with any certainty that illegal flying was
being done.

Well actually you do. So does the FAA. So does USHPA.
Now the question is, what are we going to do about it?

The video presents an ongoing danger to the sport. It promotes an unsafe reality to those that don't know better. It is likely to be emulated by those that don't understand that FAAs rules are there for a reason.
The video shows the FAA that hang glider pilots either don't know the rules or blatantly violate them in order to satisfy their own selfish egoistic purpose.

The USHPA legal team needs to do something on this. Sorry that Jonathan put himself in the limelight but now he needs to be made an example of what not to do. This is one case where the hang gliding community needs to take swift judicial action and offer apologies to all aviation fields and the public, in general, who's lives were put at risk.

The US Hawks should set a leading example for the USHPA to act in their full capacity to rectify this issue. The USHPA should expel the offending member and offer a strong rebuke. I don't think Jonathan is a member here, but the US Hawks could still invoke a strong Letter of Rebuke and insure the general population that this organization is serious about public safety.

Jonathan Dietch wrote: I originally began a secret anthology of my personal FAR 103.23 breaches in concert with Orian Price less than a year before he tragically died. I have since refined the edit and sound track dozens of times trying to get it just right and remove the non-aesthetic elements e.g. no visible background. If anyone feels inclined to disparage the video in a fit protective thinking please don't waste your energy or mine. Following a number of friends and acquaintances who nearly bought it due to cloud carelessness I've stopped engaging in this pastime and now enjoy clouds from a proper distance and leave the heroics to others. Please watch on a decent sized monitor with stereo and above all just relax and enjoy!

I still don't see Scott's message to Jonathan on youtube.
I wonder what happened there?

[Free]

What?
No seconds to my motion?

Let me just point out that the breach of FARs was an ongoing project.
There were undoubtedly scores of cloud breach encounters, and plenty white outs that were edited out of the criminal evidence presented.
As it was, it was clear that general aviation, passengers and people on the ground were put at risk many, many times in order for Jonathan to get this footage.

Played out, worst case scenario, thousands of lives were put at risk,time after time. People on the ground wouldn't have known what hit them when metal and fuel rained down around them. Stunning footage though...

This was an ongoing criminal operation. It took months for the conditions to present themselves when the youtubers could exploit them. It probably was more a predictable convergence that commonly occurs over that town full of people, in the lee of that range.
Jonathan probably dived down to the smooth condensation zone from somewhere higher. I don't think he thermalled up. I get that impression from another video he does on 11/21/19 where he does get under a cloud in a little turbulence and kinda chickens out. The 'condensation' video is butter smooth and he is horizontal to the cloud, or even over it.


To put so many lives at risk, busting FARs so many times, has to be confronted.
If you rob a bank 100 times and no one gets killed, is that ok?

USHPA has no choice but to answer to this.
I wouldn't expect much out of Mark G. Forbes, because he has also put the public's lives at risk by illegally taking passengers in a fat trike before Sport Pilot came about. Another scofflaw or just ignorant, I'm not sure?
But USHPA Corporation has to act on this if they are to retain any credibility some people may still give them.

So maybe a Letter of Rebuke directly to Jonathan would not be as useful as a letter to put USHPA on the spot.
We know they have the ability and the process, to sanction and expel a member. Let's see if they can do it once, properly?

Can I get a second on that?