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blindrodie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 1590
Location: Kansas City (Roeland Park)
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:38 pm Post subject: |
#21
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I'm IN!
Will help where I can. I'm with Holger as well on membership. Region 6
is a fine example of how the 2 groups can cooperate to not only
survive, but thrive!
I may be able to provide legal help, media production and web GRFX.
_________________
Always Your,
Wingman
Old H3
"Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
I own/fly/flew:
Guggenmos E7-WW F1-WW U2 145
WW Sport 167-WW F2 Tandem
WW Spectrum-NW Hor 180-NW Freedom
Organ Donor/Torrey Hawks # 212 |
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Rebardan
3 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 140
Location: Crestline, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:44 pm Post subject: |
#22
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| tipvortex wrote: |
| How about USHGA and use this for the logo: |
Seconded! |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
#23
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| blindrodie wrote: |
I'm IN!
... I may be able to provide legal help, media production and web GRFX. |
Wooohooo, now we're talking!! 
It's starting to feel like the story about "nail soup" that my Dad
used to tell me when I was a kid. Everybody brings something to the
table. Mmmm, mmmm, good!!
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:49 pm Post subject: |
#24
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| Rebardan wrote: |
| tipvortex wrote: |
| How about USHGA and use this for the logo: |
Seconded! |
It would be poetic justice to use both the name and logo that USHPA
discarded. But I'll bet their lawyers have got that one nailed down
tight. As it is we'll be lucky if we don't get sued for even using the
term "hang gliding" anywhere in our name! 
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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joefaust
3 thumbs up
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
#25
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"hang
gliding" is generic and HGAUSA is unique, not formerly used except by
me; and the sign-over would be solid, unconditional. Generically, there
are many using "hang gliding" like SG's forum, etc.
The copy of the exact former acronym would easily be off limits and be an unneeded stress.
Also, a new non-profit grown from this flow... would be donated, if it wanted it, full rights to my DBA (ongoing forever) Hang Glider Magazine
along with the domain http://HangGliderMagazine.com
Right now, there is just one page up. My content would be emptied as
the new org takes over the domain rights by its webmaster (someone not
me, as my computering time is already way past full) . Proviso: Upon
non-use of the domain, the domain and DBA would revert to me, provided
I was still alive and competently communicating. The matter would have
to go up for voting via coming bylaws.
Last edited by joefaust
on Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: Wingspan34 is in! |
#26
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| Wingspan34 wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
. . . Today
is June 4th, and by July 4th (U.S. Independence Day), I'd like to
declare the existence of a new national organization. I'd like anyone
who supports that new organization between now and July 4th, 2010 to be
considered as the Founding Members of that new organization. Anyone who
wants to be a Founding Member just needs to speak up and say so.
Let's do it. |
I'm speaking up and saying so. Count me IN. |
You're in!
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: |
#27
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American Hang Gliding Association = AHGA (I just moved one A from my last post.  )
ahga.us is available
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: |
#28
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Another suggestion:
Footlaunch Soaring Association, domain: fsa.aero
or:
Ultralight Soaring Association, domain: usa.aero
Motivation: keeping our options open as to include non-hang gliders
when shopping for insurance. I'd rather see us peacefully joined and
insured then keeping to ourselves but never be independent from another
organization (that we have little control over) that is supplying
coverage. |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject: |
#29
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| $!>< wrote: |
American Hang Gliding Association = AHGA (I just moved one A from my last post. )
ahga.us is available |
I would be happy with that. Let's add it to the list.
And that brings up another question. Since this organization is
spontaneously arising out of nothing, our first order of business will
be to decide how to make decisions on things like names, bylaws, etc.
Some of those things are pretty important, and there's likely to be
some debate. So we'll need to figure out how to arrive at decisions. I
am NOT the president or leader or anything with regard to this new
organization. At most I'm a facilitator and cheer leader. So we're
going to have to figure out how to bootstrap ourselves to the next
level.
I'm thinking that we can just collect member names for now and then
put all of these issues up to an electronic vote of the membership. I'm
thinking that we could do that right here on hanggliding.org. How does
everyone else feel about that?
Also, I'd like to know how everyone feels about the timeline. I'm a
little patriotic, so I like us becoming "official" on July 4th. We
could wait for then to decide on things like name, bylaws, web site, or
we could make a few of these decisions before then as well. Maybe we
could make tentative decisions sooner and have a vote of all founding
members on the 4th. Again, I'd like to know what other people think.
Thanks.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject: |
#30
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| Holger wrote: |
Another suggestion:
Footlaunch Soaring Association, domain: fsa.aero
or:
Ultralight Soaring Association, domain: usa.aero
Motivation: keeping our options open as to include non-hang gliders
when shopping for insurance. I'd rather see us peacefully joined and
insured then keeping to ourselves but never be independent from another
organization (that we have little control over) that is supplying
coverage. |
Good suggestions and good motivation. Back during the USHGA / USHPA name change I somewhat jokingly suggested "FLAPA":
Foot Launched (or Landed) Aircraft Pilot's Association
I liked that it was easier to say than USHGA, and I offered variations
like "International" (I FLAPA), "U.S." (U FLAPA), and "Western
European" (WE FLAPA). 
I also like your idea of being inclusive. However, we will be facing a
problem in the future that I knew I'd be facing with the Torrey Hawks.
Paragliding is already (or will soon become) the dominant group. I fly
PG myself, so I'm not against that sport in any way. But if hang
gliding is going to maintain its own identity, then we're going have to
protect ourselves in some way from being outjoined and outvoted by
people from other sports (any other sports really). This is less of a
problem when people have to shell out considerable money to join and
organization, but it becomes a BIG problem with a free organization.
The way we solved this with the Torrey Hawks was to accept anyone as a
member, but to require a Torrey-level hang gliding rating (H4) to
become a voting member of the club. We could do something similar for
this new club. I especially like it because I'm hoping we could offer
cheaper memberships (maybe $50 or less) than USHPA offers, and I'd like
our paragliding friends to be able to save that money.
No matter what we do, this will be one of those big issues that is
likely to cause some dissatisfaction in the club. So it is something
that should definitely be on the slate for our first club vote. I know
that emotions may run high on this one, and I hope it doesn't break us
apart before we even get started. For that reason, I ask everyone to
think about giving a little in one direction or another. Helpful
comments are welcome.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:04 pm Post subject: |
#31
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IMO, the solution is to have an umbrella org. Ive said this before.
Would look something like this:
United States Foot Launch Association USFLA (or whatever)
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+---- USAHGA
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+---- USAPGA
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+----- (Future)
Virtual sub orgs with separate online magazines, training, everything.
They never have to have one another forced down the others throat.
ONE common "FUND" in the umbrella org, for shared stuff, and separate
funds for each unique entity. Allow them to freely compete. But bylaws
state each is untouchable by the other. A firewall exists between all
the sub-orgs.
USFLA only represents them all when dealing with govt agencies, insurance agencies, etc, where we need a united front.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: |
#32
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| sg wrote: |
IMO, the solution is to have an umbrella org.
...
Virtual sub orgs with separate online magazines, training, everything.
They never have to have one another forced down the others throat.
ONE common "FUND" in the umbrella org, for shared stuff, and
separate funds for each unique entity. Allow them to freely compete.
But bylaws state each is untouchable by the other. A firewall exists
between all the sub-orgs.
USFLA only represents them all when dealing with govt agencies, insurance agencies, etc, where we need a united front. |
I think that's a great idea, and it's probably what USHGA should
have done when they merged with the Paragliding Association. It's still
possible that USHPA might do an end-run around the new organization by
trying to split themselves internally along those lines. But with their
track record, I wouldn't trust them to do even that fairly.
By the way, let's welcome "tipvortex" to the new organization. I just got the PM:
| Quote: |
From: tipvortex
To: bobk
Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:58 pm
Subject: I'm IN!
Count me in. |
Thanks!! 
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
#33
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| sg wrote: |
| IMO, the solution is to have an umbrella org. |
I like it!
Bob, I understand your concerns for the Hawks. However, the new
organization should not even get into this kind of politics. Most (or
all?) of the problems between PG and HG are local. We've seen what
happens when a national organization intervenes in local politics.
Part of defusing tensions is trimming the rating system. Then you don't get the fight about rating requirements at local sites. |
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slimchance
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Jul 2009
Posts: 157
Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:25 pm Post subject: |
#34
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I love seeing this! Cant beat them, join them, I don't think so. I am only a H-2 so I dont have a clue about this. But I love the idea of competition. Thanks for all your effort.
_________________
I have a fever…And the only prescription… is more Cowbell!!
If you want to chose a government to trust....why not this one! |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: |
#35
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How about this:
We do found an umbrella organization and include paragliders and
ultralight gliders right away (before 7/4). I don't know what their
level of interest is, but we can find out.
At the same time we also plan our HG sub organization, which is in
charge of the rating system. The sub orgs only report to the umbrella
org what member is pilot and/or instructor and needs coverage. |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:39 pm Post subject: |
#36
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| And
while we're brainstorming....we could also include the powered
ultralight folks. Again, I don't know what their situation is,
especially insurance wise. But there are quite a few out there, and if
we combined all forms of ultralight aviation, we may make a blip on the
radar of an insurance provider. |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:45 pm Post subject: |
#37
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Why not.... with sub-orgs, no one loses their identity.
Once you set one up, you have a cookie cutter to create new ones efficiently.
I could copy/paste an entire website community and spawn the new sub org in a couple of days
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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joefaust
3 thumbs up
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: |
#38
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| sg wrote: |
| IMO, the solution is to have an umbrella org. Ive said this before.. |
Fourth that, SG. Nice.
Then maybe some of this will have a sub-sector:
http://www.hgausa.com/nicheHGA.html
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: |
#39
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These
are all good ideas, but at some point we're going to have to migrate
them from a bunch of posts to a more unified format for the members to
vote on. So for anyone who's interested in presenting any formal
proposals, I've created a Wiki page at:
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/New_National_Flying_Organization
As these ideas take shape, I think we should migrate them to that
location so they're centralized for people to review. But beware that
anything posted on a Wiki page can be edited (changed!!) by anyone
else. So it's important to leave your pride and ego at the door when
you submit anything to a Wiki site.
For now, I'm thinking it might be helpful to start thowing ideas on
the wall at the Wiki site to see what looks good. I started by posting
a "sketch" of what we already have with USHPA as a basis for
comparison. I think these umbrella suggestions are good candidates to
list as well.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:08 pm Post subject: |
#40
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The key advantage to this is the separation of the power (providing insurance) and politics. That's huge!
The umbrella organization does not much beyond providing insurance. It
relies on the sub orgs to make sure we meet the insurer's expectations
in terms of claims.
We may have to slide in another umbrella between the top and HG, PG to take care of the FAA.
Although it was said the FAA "endorsed" USHPA's pilot training, I don't
think it will be too hard to set up another, simpler one and have them
accept it, too. |
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