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hgflyer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 2700
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject: |
#281
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| Thank
you Scare. Let's move forward then. If we can inspire Canda, Mexico,
South America. That in no way shape or form...Hurts hanggliding. And
vice versa. |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject: |
#282
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| Scare! wrote: |
| hgflyer wrote: |
| If
your just here as a plant to sew seeds of frustration, confusion,
negativety, doubt, arrogance? You can go back to the OZ report. |
I'm not anyone's plant (though I may be a bit of a vegetable
sometimes), and I never do any of that. You might be confusing me with
someone else. |
If you know that someone else, you might pass along that I did not
appreciate being banned from somewhere else in the middle of a hotly
debated recall election. I also didn't appreciate having my own posts
reshuffled so my opponent didn't have to answer important questions and
instead I looked like I was talking to myself in a closet.
But having said that, even that someone else is welcome here. This
new organization is intended to be open and fair to everyone. That's
what I hope we can all build together.
So ...  
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: Motion to close Transition Team |
#283
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OK,
now that we have Ryan and Scare! aboard, I think it's time to finally
establish our Transition Team before we start getting David Jebb and
Doug Poirier (aka DoucheBob) signing up for it.
I'm not saying that I object to either Ryan or Scare!. They're
likely to bring different perspectives that will be helpful. But
because it costs nothing to join, we have to be aware that we could
easily be swamped with dozens of new "volunteers" whose only purpose is
to foul up the new organization.
So I motion to close the nominations for the Transition Team at this point. I think we've got a pretty good bunch, and I'm optimistic that we might get somewhere.
Can I get a second on that motion? Thanks.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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SeeMarkFly
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1174
Location: Lakeview
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Motion to close Transition Team |
#284
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| bobk wrote: |
I motion to close the nominations for the Transition Team at this point.
Can I get a second on that motion? |
I second that.
Ha, that;s the first time I've seconded anything.
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
Old Super Sport (I can't land this one)
complacency about complacency is the true enemy. |
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Scare!
1 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 89
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: |
#285
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What's the geographic distribution of the current volunteers? (I'm in central Canada).
There will be a language barrier with some regions unless we get
some bilingual representatives. (I only talks English gud). If I
remember right, about 1/3 of Canadian pilots are in Quebec, many are
bilingual, but most speak only French.
A good portion of Mexican pilots probably English-bilingual.
South America is much more complicated. Do we have any representatives from down there yet? |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Motion to close Transition Team |
#286
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| SeeMarkFly wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
I motion to close the nominations for the Transition Team at this point.
Can I get a second on that motion? |
I second that.
Ha, that;s the first time I've seconded anything. |
And just in time!!
For those who don't know the situation in San Diego, David Jebb
sent a whole bunch of his new PG students to the SDHGPA meeting when
they were going to vote on the Soaring Council position (this was back
in 2007). They all signed up and voted for Jebb's son Gabe. I think
that might have been the largest membership spike in SDHGPA's history.
But in that case, they at least had to pay a membership fee. With a
free club (like the Hawks and the current HGAA, there isn't even that
barrier, so it would be a snap for some other group to flood us with
new "members" who just wanted to keep us from ever getting off the
ground.
The way that we handled that with the Torrey Hawks was to allow
anyone as a member, but establish a higher bar for voting. In that
case, we required an H4 rating and having flown a hang glider at Torrey
Pines within the last 3 years. We figured that was a high enough
threshold to keep Jebb's PG army from spoiling the club.
We're going to need to do something similar here to protect this organization, and I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks again Mark. You may have saved the HGAA from a blown launch!!!
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: |
#287
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| Scare! wrote: |
What's the geographic distribution of the current volunteers? (I'm in central Canada).
There will be a language barrier with some regions unless we get
some bilingual representatives. (I only talks English gud). If I
remember right, about 1/3 of Canadian pilots are in Quebec, many are
bilingual, but most speak only French.
A good portion of Mexican pilots probably English-bilingual.
South America is much more complicated. Do we have any representatives from down there yet? |
There was some discussion of this, and I think we were leaning
toward starting with a focus on the US and then reaching out once we
were on a solid footing. The language problems that you mentioned along
with the insurance complications are more than I think we should tackle
right now.
I recommend that we should get ourselves up and running for about a
year in the U.S. before we even think about crossing international
borders.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Scare!
1 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 89
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:58 pm Post subject: |
#288
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| You'll
probably have a tougher time crossing those borders then, because it'll
be seen as just another U.S.A. organization, rather than a continental
one like the name suggests. |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:01 pm Post subject: |
#289
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| Scare! wrote: |
| You'll
probably have a tougher time crossing those borders then, because it'll
be seen as just another U.S.A. organization, rather than a continental
one like the name suggests. |
Could it be any tougher for the Hang Gliding Association of America than it would be for the United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association?
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Last edited by bobk
on Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:04 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:01 pm Post subject: |
#290
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You
need to read the other threads... were thinking about having a umbrella
org, and this would be the first sub-org, which would be usa specific.
But the idea is to formulate a workable system so we could launch the
Hang Gliding Association of Canada next with far less effort... or a PG
based org or a trike org, or whatever, so we can pool numbers for
insurance while keeping our separate identities. Of course, this all
assumes people vote for this idea.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: |
#291
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SG,
I think it's a good time to decide if we've got an appropriate
Transition Team and to take a public vote of the existing Founding
Members (as of this moment) to approve that list. The Transition Team
will be tasked with voting on all measures between now and the official
launch of the new organization on July 4th.
All founding members between now and then will be able to
participate in discussions, but the Transition Team will vote on the
actual approval of each item. How does that sound?
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:12 pm Post subject: |
#292
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Sounds good to me, we have plenty of people with lots of views.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: |
#293
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| sg wrote: |
| Sounds good to me, we have plenty of people with lots of views. |
Great. Would you like to take the vote here or on a separate topic?
This is a vote of the current founders, and it should be an open yes/no
vote to approve the current Transition Team (all those who've been
listed so far) and give them the responsibility to form the initial
organization (including bylaws).
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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SeeMarkFly
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1174
Location: Lakeview
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:20 pm Post subject: |
#294
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| bobk wrote: |
| All
founding members between now and then will be able to participate in
discussions, but the Transition Team will vote on the actual approval
of each item. How does that sound? |
I like it.
I can't tell you how excited I am to be a part of this.
A small part of me is trying to stand at attention right now!
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
Old Super Sport (I can't land this one)
complacency about complacency is the true enemy. |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: |
#295
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| SeeMarkFly wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
| All
founding members between now and then will be able to participate in
discussions, but the Transition Team will vote on the actual approval
of each item. How does that sound? |
I like it.
I can't tell you how excited I am to be a part of this.
A small part of me is trying to stand at attention right now! |
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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PilotGuy
3 thumbs up
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 1743
Location: California
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject: |
#296
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What
exactly is the transition team going to be working towards? Will they
be deciding the basic operating rules and structure of the
organization, i.e. executive positions, voting methods, membership
requirements, etc? Or will they be doing hang gliding specific hang
gliding related things like laying out ratings requirements, instructor
requirements, and the like?
If the Transition Team is going to be determining the goals and
purpose of the new organization, rather than just its structure, I
would like to propose a SHORT list of requirements that the members of
the TT would be expected to work towards. I think that if I'm voting
for someone to take responsibility to lay out the groundwork for the
new organization, I would like to have some sort of expectation of
where they might take it.
For instance, I would vote for TT members if they agreed to work towards some overarching goals such as:
1) The HGAA will exist to assist pilots in maintaining insurance, flying sites, and government non-interference.
2) The HGAA will actively promote the sport of hang gliding in whatever manner seems best to its members.
3) Boobies for everyone
Is that sort of thing jumping the gun? Should that be a
'constitution' type thing that is voted on by membership after the
groundwork is laid down by the TT, or is that the sort of thing that
should be agreed upon now so that we all know where the TT (and
ourselves) are taking this? |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
#297
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| PilotGuy wrote: |
What
exactly is the transition team going to be working towards? Will they
be deciding the basic operating rules and structure of the
organization, i.e. executive positions, voting methods, membership
requirements, etc? Or will they be doing hang gliding specific hang
gliding related things like laying out ratings requirements, instructor
requirements, and the like?
If the Transition Team is going to be determining the goals and
purpose of the new organization, rather than just its structure, I
would like to propose a SHORT list of requirements that the members of
the TT would be expected to work towards. I think that if I'm voting
for someone to take responsibility to lay out the groundwork for the
new organization, I would like to have some sort of expectation of
where they might take it.
For instance, I would vote for TT members if they agreed to work towards some overarching goals such as:
1) The HGAA will exist to assist pilots in maintaining insurance, flying sites, and government non-interference.
2) The HGAA will actively promote the sport of hang gliding in whatever manner seems best to its members.
3) Boobies for everyone
Is that sort of thing jumping the gun? Should that be a
'constitution' type thing that is voted on by membership after the
groundwork is laid down by the TT, or is that the sort of thing that
should be agreed upon now so that we all know where the TT (and
ourselves) are taking this? |
Great questions (except for the "Boobies" part - you should know that's a given!!).
I think the Transition Team should focus on giving us a framework that
we can use to define all of those other details - very much like the
original U.S. Constitution (prior to the Bill of Rights amendments).
The Constitution itself is mostly a blueprint for HOW we do everything
else. It lays out the three branches and divides one of them between a
House and a Senate. It determines the requirements for holding office
and how elections are held. It does very little to define WHAT the
government does, but it does a lot to define HOW the government does
it. That's the model I think we should strive for.
Having said that, there are some fundamental "operational"
decisions that the Transition Team could address (issues similar to
those contained in the U.S. Bill of Rights). They are important, but in
the bootstrapping process the HOW needs to come first. Once we know HOW
we're going to decide things, we can start working on WHAT we're going
to do in each case.
Does that help?
P.S. I think it would be good for everyone to take some time to
read the Constitution of the United States (just google it). It's not
that long, and I really appreciated re-reading it (now that I don't
have a civics teacher forcing me to do so). You can imagine a group of
really smart guys trying to figure out how to run a new government
after putting up with a monarchy for centuries. It shows how they
pulled themselves up by their bootstaps as we're trying to do.
Here's their mission statement (the first paragraph):
| Quote: |
| We
the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,
establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of
Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. |
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Last edited by bobk
on Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
#298
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Should this thread be locked and point to the HGAA version with the same name?
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: |
#299
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| sg wrote: |
| Should this thread be locked and point to the HGAA version with the same name? |
I don't think we should force everyone over to HGAA yet because that
means they'll have to sign up just to complete this vote. Once we've
decided on the Transition Team, then maybe that Team should start its
work over there. Then everyone else can migrate at a more leisurely
pace while the Transition Team does their work.
How does that sound?
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: |
#300
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I meant this thread:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17655
Different, or merge-able?
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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