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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:35 am Post subject: |
#201
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| TomGalvin wrote: |
| So am I to take it that I am not welcome in this Hang Gliding organization? |
Tom, you're welcome if you want to help grow a new organization to give members a choice. Do you want to do that or not?
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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blindrodie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 1590
Location: Kansas City (Roeland Park)
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:38 am Post subject: |
#202
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Tom I can't for the life of me remember when you wrote about something positive
on this website. You always "seem" to be the Donny downer.
Are you really interested in progress or do you feel it will only come
out of constant disagreements. I would really like your honest answer.
It seems to me that "we" are always doing something wrong or backwards
and rarely (never?) to your liking.
What's up with you, really? 
_________________
Always Your,
Wingman
Old H3
"Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
I own/fly/flew:
Guggenmos E7-WW F1-WW U2 145
WW Sport 167-WW F2 Tandem
WW Spectrum-NW Hor 180-NW Freedom
Organ Donor/Torrey Hawks # 212 |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: |
#203
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| knumbknuts wrote: |
| Could someone please summarize the top 3 points of the new org. |
Some of that has yet to be determined by the entire group since we're still in the process of choosing a name.
I think the biggest issue is Choice. Given 100 pilots, you might
find 100 different reasons for them to be unhappy with the current
monopoly. I doubt the new organization would satisfy all 100 reasons,
but it might address 50 to 80 of them. For some it would be a hang
gliding specific name. For others it would be open voting by the board.
For others it might be a leaner (and therefore less costly)
organization. For others it might be the mandatory instructor insurance
issue. Still others might prefer a separate magazine. The list goes on,
but all of those involve giving pilots a choice. So I would anticipate
that the new organization will do best by offering services which
complement USHPA's existing services. That's how a free market works.
See a need and fill it.
For me personally, I will join because I want to see a more open
organization that's more accountable to its members. I'd like to see
open voting by the Board and open discussions by Board members of
ongoing issues. I also like the idea of using more on-line technology
to cut costs of Board meetings and to make all of our members feel more
involved in our processes.
But best of all, a new organization will create competition to
improve the operation of both organizations. That's what's been
missing, and I can see that USHPA is clearly suffering from their own
monopoly. That has created an insensitivity to their members which is a
classic symptom of a monopoly.
Does that help? More importantly, what would make you interested in joining a new organization?
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:50 pm Post subject: |
#204
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| knumbknuts wrote: |
I've been out of it with the big o loop and then saturday's bbq then the accidents.
Could someone please summarize the top 3 points of the new org, which seem to be (correct me):
- cheaper
- better ratings/instruction system
- ?
I'm a little confused by the whole umbrella org thing. |
From my perspective:
1. Dedicated to hang gliding
2. Improved pilot training
3. Transparent and inclusive management
4. Less overhead (cheaper)
And here a quick draft. I just took Justin's photo, needs to be turned into a line graphic.
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hgflyer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 2700
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: |
#205
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I'm
gonna start a hg school named....OFF TOPIC! That way when a student
asks questions...I can just reply. Isn't flying great! Or, "I think my
arm is broken?" "What happened?". You did it wrong!
Any logo that focuses on improving the growth of HangGliding!
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:41 pm Post subject: |
#206
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| Holger wrote: |
1. Dedicated to hang gliding
2. Improved pilot training
3. Transparent and inclusive management
4. Less overhead (cheaper)
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Cant wait to capture all of this on a NEW website 
Im gonna work hard to get something rough up real quick and we can move the discussion there.
Ill tweak that list.... into what im thinking so far.
Within the context of the HG sub-org:
1. dedicated to hang gliding
2. brutally "google efficient" = online everything, razor thin overhead, automated everything = lowest possible overhead costs
3. community driven (simple majority online voting for all issues? need to debate this)
4. 100% leadership transparency for members. (historical voting records, 100% online and searchable)
Oh and the umbrella thing.... my thoughts were.... we build this
such that we can end up with something that looks like this in the
future:
Umbrella org (Microlight association of America, or whatever)
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+ Hang Gliding Association of America
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+ Paragliding Association of America
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+ Ultralight Association of America
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+ PPG Association of America
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+ etc
each has their own identity, funding, direction, etc.... BUT...
they pool a percentage of resources into the Umbrella org to purchase
insurance together and as a single front to government agencies.
We get power of numbers, as well as the benefits of size and no one gets each others sport shoved down each others throats.
If we build it from the start with this in mind... once we have one
running smoothly, we can use a cookie cutter approach and bring more
pilots in.
The first org out the door would be the HG sub org.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:05 pm Post subject: |
#207
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| sg wrote: |
Cant wait to capture all of this on a NEW website
Im gonna work hard to get something rough up real quick and we can move the discussion there. |
I can't wait to see what you come up with!!! 
P.S. There is one problem with a new web site. From my experience
with the Hawks, most people like to visit a site with lots of traffic.
Since HangGliding.org is arguably the web's #1 hang gliding web site,
this will still be the best place to hold discussions and gain lots of
interest (and new members). I hope that's not a problem!!
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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dscotts
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 4
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: sign me up |
#208
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Sign me up.
Scott Silver
scottsilver1961@yahoo.com
| bobk wrote: |
I just got a PM from darkcloud that he'd like to be a Founding Member.
Anyone who's interested in joining is also welcome to chime in right here. |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: sign me up |
#210
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| dscotts wrote: |
Sign me up.
Scott Silver |
Wow, cool! Howdy, Scott!
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: Voting Systems |
#211
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Slightly Different Topic: Voting Systems
Since I've been involved in a few USHPA elections, that's got me
thinking about fair representation. This can be a very academic
subject, but let me simplify it with an example.
Let's say that a Region contains 2 Regional Directors (as some
USHPA Regions do). With the current USHPA election system, these
Directors would each serve for 2 years and be elected in alternate
years. Let's also (for the sake of argument) assume that the Region
contains 55% PG pilots and 45%HG pilots and that pilots vote strictly
by wing type. What that means is that the PG pilots will win both seats
and control 100% of the Region even though they're only just over 50%
of the Region's members. In that situation, would it be better to have
1 HG pilot elected and 1 PG pilot elected?
There are voting systems based on "Proportional Representation"
which attempt to ensure that the representation in a 55% / 45% Region
will be closer to 55% / 45% rather than 100% / 0%.
I'm just beginning to research this, and I think it might be a
useful approach for our new organization. In these kinds of systems,
voters typically submit a list of all candidates ranked by order of
preference. There are systems like STV (Single Transferrable Vote)
which distribute the votes so that the resulting winners more properly
represent the various proportions of the voters. If you search the web
for STV you'll find a fair amount of information. I particularly
recommend the Proportional Representation Foundation at http://prfound.org
. There's a good overview at:
http://prfound.org/index.php/theory/
and a more detailed description at:
http://prfound.org/index.php/theory/pr_in_a_nutshell/
They discuss both "Party List" and STV approaches. I think the STV
approach might work for us. The basic method is that everyone lists
their choices in order of preference. Then an algorithm is used to go
through the preference list to come up with the best set of winners.
This could work very well for us, and I'd be interested if anyone has
any experience with these systems or if anyone would like to help me
research these systems.
Finally, this may sound like a somewhat obscure issue, but voting
and fair representation are core values for me, and I'd like our new
organization to use the best voting techniques available. Maybe we'll
end up forming an Elections Committee of anyone who shares that
interest. Please let me know by posting, or PM, or email
(bobkuczewski@gmail.com), or by phone (858-204-7499).
Thanks for your time.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Cal Glider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Blythe CA. USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:48 pm Post subject: I want to join |
#212
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I like it, I want to join 
. I am no longer able to work due to injuries received while on active
duty in the Navy back in the day, but I got an internet connection and
a keyboard, what can I do to help the new org?
Count me in Bob... 
Lyle Anderson
USHGA Pilot #975
_________________
Bamboo Bomber
–Freeflight 17 ft STD – Cal Gliders Moth 18 ft STD - Cal Gliders 19X16
Short Keel - UP Dragonfly – Cal Gliders WindGypsy Mk 4 – Quicksilver M
-Twenty years later… Wills Wing Falcon- Altair Saturn 167, Predator142 |
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hgflyer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 2700
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: I want to join |
#213
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| Cal Glider wrote: |
I like it, I want to join
. I am no longer able to work due to injuries received while on active
duty in the Navy back in the day, but I got an internet connection and
a keyboard, what can I do to help the new org?
Count me in Bob...
Lyle Anderson
USHGA Pilot #975 |
The feeling of flying is flying! Keyboard or Wing! Your not a turkey!
We all heard the saying of eagles and turkeys! Or more specific to the
keyboard....turdkeys!
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: I want to join |
#214
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| Cal Glider wrote: |
I like it, I want to join
. I am no longer able to work due to injuries received while on active
duty in the Navy back in the day, but I got an internet connection and
a keyboard, what can I do to help the new org?
Count me in Bob...
Lyle Anderson
USHGA Pilot #975 |
You're on the list Lyle!!
I started keeping track of the list on page 4 of this topic (post #77). You can find the current list here:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=189875#189875
Thanks!
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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ClandestineSwine
3 thumbs up
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 321
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:06 am Post subject: Sign me up |
#215
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| Sign me up - PM sent to Bobk.
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Sign me up |
#216
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| ClandestineSwine wrote: |
| Sign me up - PM sent to Bobk. |
Confirmed. I'll add you to the list on page 4.
Thanks!!
Awesome Avatar by the way ... "when pigs fly!!!"
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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synclavier
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 27
Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: |
#217
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With regard to the logo design, I'd like to throw in my two cents.
I'd like to see the general rounded shape with the title running the
inside border, but with a big, fat delta wing directly in the center,
lest there be any ambiguity as to what organization is going on here. 
_________________
Joey
Brand new H2. Dream 205 "The Dreamsicle"
"He conquers, who conquers himself." |
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Fletcher
Joined: 13 Oct 2009
Posts: 37
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject: |
#218
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WOW!
Let's see where this goes
I'm in
Fletcher
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:46 pm Post subject: |
#219
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We can hold a LOGO contest this year 
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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TomGalvin
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2628
Location: Beacon, New York USA
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:33 pm Post subject: |
#220
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| blindrodie wrote: |
| Tom
I can't for the life of me remember when you wrote about something
positive on this website. You always "seem" to be the Donny downer. |
If you only read the political threads, then I could understand that
impression. Monday I was giving HangDog a pointer to red's Variometer,
plus I get a PMs from newer pilots about flying fairly often.
Granted, I am not a cheerleader for Bob, but I strive to address
the issues. I think a HG organization could be a great thing for the
sport, but I want to know what I will be getting involved in before
pledging support. I want to know what the choices are, not that I have
them. If my choice is between diphtheria and influenza, forgive me if I
abstain.
There have been some excellent ideas in this thread, and also some lousy ones. I barked at the one that affected me personally.
_________________
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