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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: |
#81
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$!>< (?)
Make it
$!><
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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Davedebogusone
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 683
Location: Beaumont ,peoples republic of Kalifornia
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:12 am Post subject: |
#82
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I toss into the ring my attempt at a logo for the new group.
Name used just because i wasnt paying attention on the most likely choice,so of coarse will be changed to whatever
Last edited by Davedebogusone
on Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Windlord
3 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 2958
Location: Montana
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:17 am Post subject: |
#83
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I like it ! 
_________________
In a frozen State of mind!
H-4 (1976), Wing history=Manta standard,Windlord 1B, Cumulus 10, Saturn 147 & Axis 13
Learn to fly hang gliders
(click here}
Torrey Hawks #208 |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:34 am Post subject: |
#84
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Perhaps
re-arrange the direction of the gliders. If you look at it for a few
seconds you start to see a "pained" or "sad" smiley face.
Maybe have them all flying in the same direction.
Just my observation.
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:42 am Post subject: |
#85
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If
were gonna take advantage of sub-orgs, best to be more specific, and
have hang gliding in there instead of foot launch. People like to have
an identity. The PG-sub-org and the ultra-light-sub-org can have their
actually names in there as well.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:00 am Post subject: |
#86
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| jspin72 wrote: |
count me in and i'll help sg with the web dev
too bad i just renewed my $270 tandem membership, oh well  |
Don't worry. I suspect we're about a year away from a tandem exemption
anyway. If we had a big pile of money we could just go out and buy
insurance right now. But I suspect we'll have to bootstrap this new
organization by growing our membership first.
| BBJCaptain wrote: |
| NAHGA.......North American Hang Gliding Assn. |
I've added it to the Wiki Page. Thanks!
| BBJCaptain wrote: |
| To
get the most support for this effort, we would have to make it so
everyone could keep their current rating level. I think most Adv/Mas
rated Pilots have invested a lot of time and hard work to get their
current rating level. This would be one of our top 4 or 5 issues that
needs to be addressed |
Agreed. I think the new organization would honor all USHPA ratings. In
fact, one possibility is to not even offer a rating program initially,
but to simply honor existing USHPA ratings. That's one way to assure
the insurance provider that we're not "substandard" in our rating
practices.
| BBJCaptain wrote: |
1) Insurance
2) Flying sites / land owners / BLM
3) Far 103 / FAA (training / waivers -( maybe # 2 ))
4) Rating System
5) Growing Membership ( might be # 1 also )
Count me in |
I think that's a pretty good list, and I agree that Growing
Membership might be #1 also. In fact, I'm thinking that's all we do at
the beginning is grow our membership. If we don't charge for
memberships (until we can provide insurance) then there's almost no
barrier to new members. If we can get a significant number of free
members, then we can go to the next step. If we can't, then that's
telling us that there just isn't enough interest, and we'll have to
accept that.
| skypilot155 wrote: |
I'll join, if some basic questions can be addressed
What's the membership fee? Who will decide who gets what rating,
and do the ratings we have transfer? What will we need to do to get
rated as instructors? Who'll work on getting insurnace coverage, both
site and pilot? And most important, will there be a secret handshake? |
I think all of these questions should be answered by a vote of the
founding members (or by their elected representatives?). We're still in
the bootstrapping phase (almost like the First Continental Congress in 1774
).
So the first order of business is to establish a group of people who
will actually answer all of those questions through a democratic
process. I plan to be just one of those people, and I hope there will
be many more. In fact, I'd like all Founding Members to be voting on
these issues.
Having said that, my own vote would be to start out with no
membership fee until we've got sufficient members to provide insurance.
At that point, I'd like to shoot for a target membership fee of around
$50 to be competitive with the existing market.
I would also vote that we honor existing ratings. In fact (as I
mentioned above), I would be biased toward not even issuing ratings to
begin with. That would mean that all of our instructors would have to
retain USHPA membership (for some transition period) to be able to
issue USHPA ratings. So those pilots (both instructors and those
earning new ratings) would have to be USHPA members for those purposes
until we could establish our own instructor/rating system. Their
memberships in the new organization could be free since they weren't
using our insurance (until we can offer it).
You asked who'll work on getting insurance for sites and pilots. I
think that will happen once we have a valid organization established
and can delegate responsibility. Nothing will happen if we don't have
people willing to step in and do some work. If we can't find those
people, then we won't have a new organization.
The answer to most of these questions is that we're in a chicken
and egg situation. If we had either a ton of money or a ton of members
we could start right off with insurance. But since we have neither,
then we'll have to bootstrap ourselves to get there. The membership
seems easiest right now, and if we can't get enough interest, then
we'll have to accept that and live with what we have. But if we can
build a free membership of around a thousand pilots, then we can be
credible when we approach insurance carriers. So in my opinion
membership will be first. As founding members, it will be our job to
work to build that membership.
I hope that helps.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:20 am Post subject: |
#87
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Not
to make this more complicated, but how do you propose we vote on
matters? Using this website and the current polling system or just by
posting our votes in threads?
How can we ensure that only "members" are the ones voting on these
topics? It would seem we would need (ASAP) either a special sub forum
which only members of this new ORG will be allowed access to, or a
completely new site which requires a secure logon. This will then
facilitate legitimate members from others who may vote for the sake of
screwing up the works.
There are plenty of ways to go about this and first and foremost
establishing some sort of identity should be top priority so we can
build off of it.
As far as the July 4th date, I think we should be able to come up
with a name by then, but ironing out all the gory details as far as
ratings, insurance etc..will take time. I think you have a pretty good
strategy going on Bob by honoring the ratings and building membership
first.
My top priority vote is to get the name established and then some
web access for members only. We can keep this thread alive here or move
it to another forum entirely dedicated to the new org.
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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synclavier
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 27
Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: |
#88
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The tree of glider liberty is being refreshed. Beautiful...
Bob, please count me in as a founding member.
I offer up some name ideas :
American Delta Wing Pilots' Association
American Aero Wing Pilots' Association
United Hang Glider Clubs of America ----> A tribal kind of idea...
Thanks to Bob and everyone else for your hard work on this new thing that's beginning to take shape.
_________________
Joey
Brand new H2. Dream 205 "The Dreamsicle"
"He conquers, who conquers himself." |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:46 am Post subject: |
#89
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| $!>< wrote: |
Not
to make this more complicated, but how do you propose we vote on
matters? Using this website and the current polling system or just by
posting our votes in threads?
How can we ensure that only "members" are the ones voting on these
topics? It would seem we would need (ASAP) either a special sub forum
which only members of this new ORG will be allowed access to, or a
completely new site which requires a secure logon. This will then
facilitate legitimate members from others who may vote for the sake of
screwing up the works.
There are plenty of ways to go about this and first and foremost
establishing some sort of identity should be top priority so we can
build off of it.
As far as the July 4th date, I think we should be able to come up
with a name by then, but ironing out all the gory details as far as
ratings, insurance etc..will take time. I think you have a pretty good
strategy going on Bob by honoring the ratings and building membership
first.
My top priority vote is to get the name established and then some
web access for members only. We can keep this thread alive here or move
it to another forum entirely dedicated to the new org. |
Great points!!!
The July 4th date is intended to simply declare that a new organization
exists and what its name is and maybe a web site. Anything beyond that
is gravy. Part of that decision will involve people willing to step up
and take on tasks (like registering a domain name etc.).
Right now Joe Faust has offered to donate HGAUSA.org, which already
exists. I like all of the other names, but we'll need someone to
volunteer to check them out. Part of the problem with a public process
like this is that as soon as we state a name, some joker is likely to
go and grab it just to mess with us. So Joe volunteering HGAUSA.org
(with it already in hand) gives us a safety net.
You also asked some good questions about who we are and how we'll
vote. I'd like our voting to be out in the open (one of my complaints
against USHPA was all the secret and/or non-recorded votes).
Fortunately, so far everyone who's signed up as a founding member is
pretty well known on this forum. I'm seeing names who've stood for
fairness and openness for a long time. So I don't question the
sincerity of anyone on that list. But at some point we might start
seeing suspicious names creeping in, and we'll have to deal with that.
It's all part of the bootstrapping process ... chicken or egg?
And that brings up the issue of leadership. At some point we should
start choosing who is going to lead this first "Contintental Congress"
phase of bootstrapping. It would be great to have some volunteers
(other than me!!!) who would like to be our "Founding Executive
Committee" until July 4th. That's a temporary job, and their goal would
be to get us through the naming process and web site selection process
and decide how we take the next step. Who would like to volunteer to be
on the Founding Executive Committee? Please don't be shy, we need some
people willing to step up.
Thanks.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Jason
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 5393
Location: Boulder, Colorado
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: |
#90
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i would be willing to help out
_________________
H4 ,t-1,FL,AWCL,CL, FSL,RLF TUR
WW T2C 144
Sensor142F2
Falcon Tandem |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:04 am Post subject: |
#91
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| Quote: |
| You
also asked some good questions about who we are and how we'll vote. I'd
like our voting to be out in the open (one of my complaints against
USHPA was all the secret and/or non-recorded votes). |
I think what the problem you are saying with the current USHPA is WE
are all members, but we don't see what votes are going on higher up in
the rankings which affect us all.
When I am saying we need to establish either a seperate website or
forum for members only, this will isolate only the people that need to
be part of the voting/decision making process from the general public
who aren't part of it or don't care about it. Basically the members
area would be available to the leaders of the new org all the way down
to the end users. If you are a member, you get access and the
oportunity to vote on matters if you want to.
Registering a domain name is easy and establishing a basic website
is easy. There are plenty of out of the box and free CMS out there.
Hell, I can have a site up before the end of the day, but I don't
specialize in that stuff. While the already offered established domain
is generous, it kind of locks us into that name should be go forward
with it. If we are still up in the air about things, this forum would
be the best place to create a seperate area for members only. But that
means we are volenteering SG to do more work. 
Once an identity is determined, then we can go ahead and register a
domain and get hosting. But this should probably be left to the pros
unless people are willing to deal with a "buggy site"
The seperate forum/site just weeds out the general public and
allows ALL members big and small to have a say. The MEMBERS are the
only ones that need to see what is going on.
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:07 am Post subject: |
#92
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I have nice CMS stuff ready to go, and have ready to go template websites to build off of. But this week is BAD for me.
Need a little bit of time and ill get a members website out where we
can have a sign up area, with a pledge of sorts, and a forum + content
management system where we can start voting on core principles, logos,
etc
I should be able to get you the tools maybe next week and then you
all can run with it. Ive got the hosting space too, etc, etc...
(PS BOB: another list item, we can change the LEAD GEN program to
only send leads to instructors/schools who sign up for the new org  Another idea we can vote on)
Actually - I have a bunch of ideas.... will list them after we have a method of dealing with them.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:10 am Post subject: |
#93
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ACTION ITEM: Some created a header logo for the new site.
900X96 pixels. Leave the NAME off until we vote on a name. But finish the graphic for the HG sub org
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:10 am Post subject: |
#94
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| synclavier wrote: |
The tree of glider liberty is being refreshed. Beautiful...
Bob, please count me in as a founding member. |
You're on the list!!
| synclavier wrote: |
I offer up some name ideas :
American Delta Wing Pilots' Association
American Aero Wing Pilots' Association
United Hang Glider Clubs of America ----> A tribal kind of idea... |
Thanks. I've added them to the Wiki page.
And that brings up another good point. The forum is basically a stream of conciousness (or sometimes unconciousness
), and that's great, but it makes it hard to consolidate ideas. The
Wiki is just the opposite. It's a place where we have to agree to
consolidate our ideas otherwise we'll have 10 people continually
re-editing the same pages (fortunately all history is maintained). So
as some of these ideas come up here on the forum, we should try to put
them on the Wiki as well. There's a Wiki page at:
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/New_National_Flying_Organization
and it's starting to take shape. That's the place where many hands
can help out. Try not to step on other people's toes because it's a
tight space, so if your own toes get stepped on, please try not to get
upset. I'm sure we've got some opinionated people in this group, so it
will take a real effort from all of us to NOT tick each other off to
where we scatter. Please try to remember that as we move forward.
| Jason wrote: |
| i would be willing to help out |
I've added you to the list of Founding Members. Thanks!!
By the way, I really like the mix of Founding Members that we have
so far. I think we really could make this happen if we have what it
takes to follow through. Thanks to everyone.
[edit]I was typing this up while some of you were posting about a
web site specifically for this project. I agree with those posts, and
I'd be happy to accept SG's offers for a working site. Also, the name
issue can be a big quagmire (as USHGA found out), and it can be the
first thing to divide us. So let's please not get our own egos tied up
in any name. For the record, I am happy with almost anything I've seen
so far.[/edit]
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Last edited by bobk
on Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Davedebogusone
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 683
Location: Beaumont ,peoples republic of Kalifornia
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:13 am Post subject: |
#95
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A few mods
 |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:18 am Post subject: |
#96
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| Quote: |
I have nice CMS stuff ready to go, and have ready to go template websites to build off of. But this week is BAD for me.
Need a little bit of time and ill get a members website out where we
can have a sign up area, with a pledge of sorts, and a forum + content
management system where we can start voting on core principles, logos,
etc
I should be able to get you the tools maybe next week and then you all
can run with it. Ive got the hosting space too, etc, etc...
(PS BOB: another list item, we can change the LEAD GEN program to only
send leads to instructors/schools who sign up for the new org Another
idea we can vote on)
Actually - I have a bunch of ideas.... will list them after we have a method of dealing with them. |
This is what I am talking about. Don't hire a carpenter to do your
plumbing!! While my job requires me to know a lot of stuff about a lot
of things computer related and I would have no problem setting up a
site for the new org, I would be re-inventing the wheel and you
wouldn't get something as nice as what SG could do. While I flail
around looking for software, hosting etc, SG already has this stuff in
his bag of tricks ready to go.
With this in mind, since this site is already established, what
about the name HangGliding Orginization of America? HOA The domain
hanggliding.org would fit just fine as a homepage for this name and we
would already have an awesome webmaster in place with a deep bag of
tricks up his sleeve.
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:19 am Post subject: |
#97
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| Davedebogusone wrote: |
A few mods
|
Much happier!!
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5671
Location: Central NY
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:21 am Post subject: |
#98
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I've wondered, . . .
Why limit this new organization to the US? Hang gliding is being out
paced in other countries also - couldn't this new Org promote the sport
everywhere?
Also, we could use as many members as possible, right? So why not a WORLD (or International) Hang Gliding Association?
We would certainly need to focus, first, on US details, but the
internet based technology to be use to get this new association up and
running makes international participation pretty simple (in many ways,
at least).
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:24 am Post subject: |
#99
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| $!>< wrote: |
| With
this in mind, since this site is already established, what about the
name HangGliding Orginization of America? HOA The domain
hanggliding.org would fit just fine as a homepage for this name and we
would already have an awesome webmaster in place with a deep bag of
tricks up his sleeve. |
I think that would be great, but that's SG's call. He might want to keep hanggliding.org separate from the organization or not.
There might be a control issue that could arise. Right now SG has
complete control and discretion with this site. Would that be true if
this were also the official site of a new democratically-elected
organization? I'm not sure what the answer would be.
There are good reasons to use this site (you can't beat the
name!!), but there are complications as well. I'll let SG comment (if
he hasn't while I was typing!).
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:32 am Post subject: |
#100
|
Pretty
much SOMEONE is going to be in control of the domain either way you
slice it. If that person becomes disgruntled, they can screw things up
royally simply by fudging up the DNS settings for the site. We are kind
of in the chicken and egg scenario as you described and at this point
we would have to extend trust to individuals to get things off the
ground.
I agree, it is totally SG's call as far as the domain name goes. If
we piggy back off it even just to get a different domain established
then that is what we may need to do. If we do establish the other
domain, then SG would have my vote as far as the man who can get the
site up, but yes, there should be other people that would be able to
drive as well. I would be willing to moderate a new site, but don't ask
me to code anything. 
By the way...did you remove the ? from my name on that list yet?
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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