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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: |
#101
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Ive been pondering this... and am not done. Its complicated.
Thinking thinking thinking.......
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:38 am Post subject: |
#102
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I
don't know. If I started a website out of the love for something and
saw that it was growing into a new national movement, it would kinda
bring a tear to my eye and put a lump in my throat.  Your baby is growing up into something much bigger than you ever thought.
By the way....when was the last time you flew???
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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TomGalvin
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2628
Location: Beacon, New York USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:44 am Post subject: |
#103
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| sg wrote: |
(PS
BOB: another list item, we can change the LEAD GEN program to only send
leads to instructors/schools who sign up for the new org  Another idea we can vote on) |
Is your goal to grow the sport or divide it?
_________________
Tell us about where you fly in the Site Guide
My User Page
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:46 am Post subject: |
#104
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| TomGalvin wrote: |
| sg wrote: |
| (PS
BOB: another list item, we can change the LEAD GEN program to only send
leads to instructors/schools who sign up for the new org Another idea we can vote on) |
Is your goal to grow the sport or divide it? |
What was USHPA's goal when SG went to them with the idea?
What was USHPA's goal when they refused to support the Hawks?
What was USHPA's goal when they supported secret ballots?
What was USHPA's goal when they excluded RD's from EC meetings?
Tom, if you don't like the idea of a new organization, please feel free
to join in on the Oz Report. They've got a head start on bashing it
already.
P.S. You won't have to read my posts over there because Davis
banned me while I was fighting to save my Directorship!! You know who's
camp he's in.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:01 am Post subject: |
#105
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| TomGalvin wrote: |
| sg wrote: |
| (PS
BOB: another list item, we can change the LEAD GEN program to only send
leads to instructors/schools who sign up for the new org Another idea we can vote on) |
Is your goal to grow the sport or divide it? |
Obviously grow it. Look at the smart phone competition between iPhone
and Google Android. Choice drives higher quality, and the market is
EXPLODING.
Having another org marketing hang gliding can only help. 2 orgs marketing the sport are better than one.
Any talk of dividing is simply politics. Makes no sense.
Look at the scuba orgs:
PADI, NAUI, SSI, PDIC, YMCA, CMAS, BSAC, HSA, MDEA, IDEA, NASE, PDIC
I wager PADI's quality is far better with competitors keeping it on its toes.
Anyway, this is not the thread for this discussion. If anyone
wishes to bash people trying to offer more choice, take it somewhere
else.
Ushpa was offered lead gen, and they screwed it up and pissed off its
volunteers. I wager this new org will accept it with open arms.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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blindrodie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 1590
Location: Kansas City (Roeland Park)
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:02 am Post subject: |
#106
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Bull hockey we all know the rigid would be ON TOP!!!!! 
_________________
Always Your,
Wingman
Old H3
"Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
I own/fly/flew:
Guggenmos E7-WW F1-WW U2 145
WW Sport 167-WW F2 Tandem
WW Spectrum-NW Hor 180-NW Freedom
Organ Donor/Torrey Hawks # 212 |
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knumbknuts
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 4481
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: |
#107
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I suggest USHPA be referenced as little as possible.
Ever gone out on a date with a hot chick who kept talking about her ex?
I am on board for the sake of competition. USHPA comports itself in a manner consistent with being the only game in town.
If I thought, for a second, this would hurt the sport, I wouldn't join.
It's hard to confuse USHPA with "the sport" as a whole. They are not
the sport any more than Wills Wing or Wallaby are. USHPA is simply a
facet of it. USHPA is a rating and insurance agency that puts out a
really nice magazine (no sarcasm or facetiousness). |
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knumbknuts
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 4481
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:07 am Post subject: |
#108
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| bobk wrote: |
| Davedebogusone wrote: |
A few mods
 |
Much happier!!  |
\
Nice dave, try mirroring the guy about to land so the leading edge of his wing follows the arc of the sun burst.
_________________
http://hgaa.org
- a national hang gliding organization
http://bigoloop.com
U2 160 ~ H4
Crestline Soaring Society ~ Torrey Hawks #8
http://knumbknuts.blogspot.com
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:07 am Post subject: |
#109
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| knumbknuts wrote: |
I suggest USHPA be referenced as little as possible.
Ever gone out on a date with a hot chick who kept talking about her ex?
I am on board for the sake of competition. USHPA comports itself in a manner consistent with being the only game in town.
If I thought, for a second, this would hurt the sport, I wouldn't join.
It's hard to confuse USHPA with "the sport" as a whole. They are not
the sport any more than Wills Wing or Wallaby are. USHPA is simply a
facet of it. |
Agree. The naysayers may try to force this though and constantly try to turn it into a ushpa debate.
Then there is "positioning".
"Insert new name here" - slogan: The ONLY national hang gliding organization in the US.  Which would be technically true (versus a sport flying org)
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:16 am Post subject: |
#110
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| knumbknuts wrote: |
I suggest USHPA be referenced as little as possible.
Ever gone out on a date with a hot chick who kept talking about her ex?
I am on board for the sake of competition. USHPA comports itself in a manner consistent with being the only game in town. |
Well said. In the end, this organization will survive because it offers
something that the other alternatives do not. There will be some small
number of "I hate USHPA" members, but the vast majority will just want
to see a positive organization that supports hang gliding with
enthusiasm and openness. I hope that's what we can deliver.
| knumbknuts wrote: |
| If I thought, for a second, this would hurt the sport, I wouldn't join. |
I agree there as well. If you watch "Big Blue Sky" you'll see an
enthusiasm about our sport which has been lost. I think we can regain
that spirit (and growth) with a new organization that just wants to
promote hang gliding.
| knumbknuts wrote: |
| It's hard to confuse USHPA with "the sport" as a whole. |
Unfortunately, I think a lot of people do make that confusion. The
existing monopoly has created that confusion, and that monopoly has
also created the insensitivity that we've seen. There are many facets
to hang gliding, but until now, they've all been forced to wear one
face.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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CHassan
3 thumbs up
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 3862
Location: Ohio
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:39 am Post subject: |
#111
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| Holger wrote: |
That said, I suggest to have only a single license - the one that
allows you to fly a hang glider. Just like the FAA only requires one
license to fly a single engine land plane - which is what the majority
of private pilots ever need to fly all they want. No need to be holier
then the church. |
Unless you fly a taildragger you need a taildragger sign off. Or
complex aircraft with retracts, variable pitch prop, and flaps. Maybe a
weight shift sign off for a trike.
Then if you want high performance you need to get another sign off.
Not to mention you could hold a Student, Recreational, Sport, or Private certificate.
Using the FAA to indicate something is simple is a poor choice. We
have an FAA audit going on at work right now. No not simple, nothing
with the FAA is simple.
_________________
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WW Sport 2
H3
AT, FL,ST, RLF, TUR.
Visit my Flickr page.
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TomGalvin
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2628
Location: Beacon, New York USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:41 am Post subject: |
#112
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If
you want to stand in the way of someone finding a local instructor,
then how is that good for the sport. Do you think you were doing me a
favor with your lead gen? I don't do this for free. I pay to instruct.
I spend money to help bring new people into the sport. You and Bob are
bashing yourselves
_________________
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:45 am Post subject: |
#113
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| CHassan wrote: |
| Unless
you fly a taildragger you need a taildragger sign off. Or complex
aircraft with retracts, variable pitch prop, and flaps. Maybe a weight
shift sign off for a trike. |
This will be a good topic of discussion once the new organization gets
going. But the first step will be to create the organization so we can
begin having those discussions. Let's please table it for now or add it
to the Wiki so the more general topic of the new organization itself
doesn't get too bogged down in details. Thanks.
By the way, would you like to be on the Founding Member team to
help us get launched in a good direction? You can always bail out if
you see it going south. I think your opinions and vote would be
welcome.
Tom, if you would like to argue about whether a new organization is
good or not, there's a topic in the basement for that. This topic is
for people who WANT to be part of a new organization. Thanks.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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synclavier
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 27
Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:01 am Post subject: |
#114
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I
have a question involving the potential relationship between the new
organization and other existing institutions within the HG community,
such as the various HG manufacturers and even the HGMA. Will they be
willing to recognize the new organization and offer their products
and/or services to it?
Eg. If I am a member of the new org, but Wills Wing will only sell
me a glider through an authorized distributor, who in turn will only
sell me a glider if I possess an H2 from USHPA, I may have an immediate
problem.
Any thoughts on this matter? Am I seeing this scenario correctly?
_________________
Joey
Brand new H2. Dream 205 "The Dreamsicle"
"He conquers, who conquers himself." |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:16 am Post subject: |
#115
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| synclavier wrote: |
I
have a question involving the potential relationship between the new
organization and other existing institutions within the HG community,
such as the various HG manufacturers and even the HGMA. Will they be
willing to recognize the new organization and offer their products
and/or services to it?
Eg. If I am a member of the new org, but Wills Wing will only sell
me a glider through an authorized distributor, who in turn will only
sell me a glider if I possess an H2 from USHPA, I may have an immediate
problem.
Any thoughts on this matter? Am I seeing this scenario correctly? |
I think there will be 2 answers - Short Term and Long Term.
In the Short Term (maybe even a year or two) there will be lots of
problems with recognition of the new organization (sites, insurance,
ratings, instructors, manufacturers, ...). These are all the barriers
that make it difficult to start a new organization, and that's partly
why we don't have choice in this market. The best answer is that I
think the new organization will try to accomodate members who may still
need to depend on other organizations (possibly with price breaks). For
now, I don't think anyone should be failing to renew with USHPA (I just
sent in my payment yesterday  ).
In the Long Term (once we have a few thousand members), I am hoping
that both organizations will recognize each other just as many dive
shops will fill your tanks whether you show them a NAUI card or a PADI
card. At that point we'll have a functioning free market and both
organizations will work hard to keep their members since switching will
be fairly easy. But until then, there may be some hurtles and the new
organization might not be able to meet all needs without pilots holding
dual memberships (again, I hope we'll try to be helpful on the price to
overcome or eliminate the costs of dual membership).
Finally, I think the path from the short term to the long term is
free memberships in the new organization. That way pilots won't feel
any negative financial impacts, and when we have enough members we can
really see what insurance will cost and begin to advertise real
sustainable prices. Does that make sense? Any down sides?
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:31 am Post subject: |
#116
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| TomGalvin wrote: |
| If
you want to stand in the way of someone finding a local instructor,
then how is that good for the sport. Do you think you were doing me a
favor with your lead gen? I don't do this for free. I pay to instruct.
I spend money to help bring new people into the sport. You and Bob are
bashing yourselves |
Bashing? Standing in the way? So inaccurate.
Thats like saying I was standing in the way of hang gliding when I
stopped sending ushpa free leads. Nope, instead I sent them to
instructors directly who are effectively a part of another org called
HANG GLIDING.ORG.
So there is a simple solution. You join the new org TOO. Get the leads. Simple.
No one ever said you have to quit another org to join the new one.
Orgs offer services. This one will too. People will join it if it offers them something positive.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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hgflyer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 2700
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:02 pm Post subject: |
#117
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If this new org. is better than what exist now (and I know it can be). Then it goes without saying...Hanggliding will grow!
If your happy with the status quo or in the mindset. What's in it for
me? Do us all a favor and keep your thoughts to yourself. In defense of
the current org. I've been saying for over 20 years. That it needs to
improve! That time has come and gone.
Thanks Bob, and everyone who see where things can be improved on. Count me in! I would be more than happy to help, where I can.
Cheers |
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synclavier
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 27
Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:35 pm Post subject: |
#118
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| bobk wrote: |
| synclavier wrote: |
I
have a question involving the potential relationship between the new
organization and other existing institutions within the HG community,
such as the various HG manufacturers and even the HGMA. Will they be
willing to recognize the new organization and offer their products
and/or services to it?
Eg. If I am a member of the new org, but Wills Wing will only sell
me a glider through an authorized distributor, who in turn will only
sell me a glider if I possess an H2 from USHPA, I may have an immediate
problem.
Any thoughts on this matter? Am I seeing this scenario correctly? |
I think there will be 2 answers - Short Term and Long Term.
In the Short Term (maybe even a year or two) there will be lots of
problems with recognition of the new organization (sites, insurance,
ratings, instructors, manufacturers, ...). These are all the barriers
that make it difficult to start a new organization, and that's partly
why we don't have choice in this market. The best answer is that I
think the new organization will try to accomodate members who may still
need to depend on other organizations (possibly with price breaks). For
now, I don't think anyone should be failing to renew with USHPA (I just
sent in my payment yesterday ).
In the Long Term (once we have a few thousand members), I am hoping
that both organizations will recognize each other just as many dive
shops will fill your tanks whether you show them a NAUI card or a PADI
card. At that point we'll have a functioning free market and both
organizations will work hard to keep their members since switching will
be fairly easy. But until then, there may be some hurtles and the new
organization might not be able to meet all needs without pilots holding
dual memberships (again, I hope we'll try to be helpful on the price to
overcome or eliminate the costs of dual membership).
Finally, I think the path from the short term to the long term is
free memberships in the new organization. That way pilots won't feel
any negative financial impacts, and when we have enough members we can
really see what insurance will cost and begin to advertise real
sustainable prices. Does that make sense? Any down sides? |
Makes good sense. Good insight, Bob.
I have some other topics I'd like to broach.
Whatever we do, let's please consider implementing a simple and direct
way of dismissing a leader or director of the org, if and when the
members feel he/she is not performing up to the task or is acting
outside the interests of the org's membership, a "dump handle," if you
will. If we are going to create a organization, which no doubt will be
a labor of love of many people for many years, let's take time in the
beginning to discuss ways that we can preserve its virtue for as long
as possible.
I have a question about member involvement. USHPA's MO is to have rated
instructors teach non- or lesser rated pilots the skills to become
better pilots and advance upwards in the ratings system, the current
benchmark for judging one's proficiency. I have thoughts on how
knowledge and experience can be diffused or conferred from more
proficient pilots to less proficient pilots in a way that is personal,
meaningful, effective., and not expressly for financial gain.
1. Tiered Mentoring System - This process would involve
transferring skills and knowledge from member pilots who are more
experienced to those members who are less experienced in a way that is
quantifiable. I could foresee this being where a Tier III pilot gains
the responsibility of teaching a Tier I pilots a certain skillset (or
Tier IV with Tier II, etc.), and is required to pass his/her knowledge
on to someone else as part of their own rite of passage to Tier IV. In
this way, EVERYONE earns their right to progress upwards through the
org by ensuring the progress of the people below them. We can take care
of our own, and we can teach our own, with all of the hundreds of
years-worth of knowledge, experience, and wisdom carried by the master
and journeyman level pilots in the org. THIS WOULD FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE
THE CULTURE OF THE SPORT ACTIVITY BY ADDING A MEASURE OF RESPONSIBILITY
TO HELPING YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS PROGRESS WHILE ON YOUR WAY UP.
2. Use the Master/Apprentice model -
This would be a longer term relationship between pilots, but would
foster tremendous bonds of trust and camaraderie in the flying careers
of the teacher and pupil. Gender appropriate. Completely discretionary.
I think that this could contribute to the paradigm shift in hang
gliding culture that people are longing for right now. Any thoughts on
these ideas?
_________________
Joey
Brand new H2. Dream 205 "The Dreamsicle"
"He conquers, who conquers himself." |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:45 pm Post subject: |
#119
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| CHassan wrote: |
| Holger wrote: |
That said, I suggest to have only a single license - the one that
allows you to fly a hang glider. Just like the FAA only requires one
license to fly a single engine land plane - which is what the majority
of private pilots ever need to fly all they want. No need to be holier
then the church. |
Unless you fly a taildragger you need a taildragger sign off. Or
complex aircraft with retracts, variable pitch prop, and flaps. Maybe a
weight shift sign off for a trike.
Then if you want high performance you need to get another sign off.
Not to mention you could hold a Student, Recreational, Sport, or Private certificate.
Using the FAA to indicate something is simple is a poor choice. We
have an FAA audit going on at work right now. No not simple, nothing
with the FAA is simple. |
The majority of the private pilots go through the training, earn their
ticket and can fly all they want into nearly all airports. In contrast
there are many sites that require H4 and there's way less
infrastructure to obtain that rating. You can easily earn your private
pilot's certificate in a few months at the local airport, don't have to
take a single day off work. Try that with hang gliding if you are, like
most, nowhere close to an HG instructor. That's choking the lifeblood
out of this sport.
Imagine that: it's easier to become a private pilot then a hang glider pilot. Perhaps more expensive, but faster and easier. |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:50 pm Post subject: |
#120
|
Absurd isnt it?
Anyone who has a focus on removing all these entry barriers GETS IT. 
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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