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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: |
#121
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ACTION ITEM:
We need to settle on a name an domain name before I can build anything for the community to go crazy with.
Can someone pull together all the names so far? Lets take a vote or add a few more.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:53 pm Post subject: |
#122
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They sound like good ideas to me Joey. I particularly like the idea of pilots helping pilots.
Let me make another pitch to have people post their ideas to the Wiki:
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/New_National_Flying_Organization
That way we can begin to consolidate them by their category:
- Name
- Purpose
- Insurance
- Organizational Structure
- Membership Benefits
- Membership Classes (and costs)
- Training and Rating Programs
- Instructors
- Competition
- Classes of Wings
...
I know that learning how to use the Wiki isn't a lot of fun, but I
encourage everyone to go there and try to add something - even if it's
just adding your real name to the Founding Members list (in no
particular order).
Part of what will make the new organization efficient (and
hopefully lower cost) is our willingness to embrace technology from the
very beginning. So I'd really like to see all Founding Members editing
those Wiki pages regularly. Please send me a PM if you need any help.
Thanks.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject: |
#123
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| sg wrote: |
ACTION ITEM:
We need to settle on a name an domain name before I can build anything for the community to go crazy with.
Can someone pull together all the names so far? Lets take a vote or add a few more. |
How about if we set a deadline for that? Is there a time frame you're considering? One day? 3 days? 10 days?
Thanks.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 9845
Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject: |
#124
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Names in the WIKI so far, any others?
AHGA American Hang Gliding Association
HGAA Hang Gliding Association of America
HGAUSA Hang Gliding Association USA (hgausa.org - already donated to the organization)
FSA Footlaunch Soaring Association fsa.aero
USA Ultralight Soaring Association, domain: usa.aero
USHGA United States Hang Gliding Association (previous name of USHPA - may be a legal battle)
USFLA United States Foot Launch Association
FLAPA Foot Launched/Landed Aircraft Pilot's Assciation
NAHGA North American Hang Gliding Association
American Delta Wing Pilots' Association
American Aero Wing Pilots' Association
UHGCA United Hang Glider Clubs of America ----> A tribal kind of idea...
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
"To be what you've never been you must do what you've never done." - Unknown |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject: |
#125
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| bobk wrote: |
- Name
- Purpose
- Insurance
- Organizational Structure
- Membership Benefits
- Membership Classes (and costs)
- Training and Rating Programs
- Instructors
- Competition
- Classes of Wings |
Bob, how about doing this topic by topic, since we're not in one room with full attention to the matter?
I suggest we pick 1 topic, discuss it, vote on it and move on to
the next. First topic is the name and domain name. The wiki is also not
ideal as we'll get write conflicts if we all start editing those
handful pages. I'd keep it in a forum (separate, if possible) until we
have a decision, then one of us writes it into the wiki. Or a few write
on it, but not all. |
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gluesniffer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 319
Location: 5150
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: |
#126
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Keep
the costs down please.. I already pay 270 a year- 50 dollars extra is
something I can handle during the transition period.
20 dollars for insurance, where does the extra 50 go?
lets pass the savings on to the pilots
Count the glue man in! 
_________________
"Truth is the highest God" - Gandhi
Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:11 pm Post subject: |
#127
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| sg wrote: |
Names in the WIKI so far, any others?
AHGA American Hang Gliding Association
HGAA Hang Gliding Association of America
HGAUSA Hang Gliding Association USA (hgausa.org - already donated to the organization)
FSA Footlaunch Soaring Association fsa.aero
USA Ultralight Soaring Association, domain: usa.aero
USHGA United States Hang Gliding Association (previous name of USHPA - may be a legal battle)
USFLA United States Foot Launch Association
FLAPA Foot Launched/Landed Aircraft Pilot's Assciation
NAHGA North American Hang Gliding Association
American Delta Wing Pilots' Association
American Aero Wing Pilots' Association
UHGCA United Hang Glider Clubs of America ----> A tribal kind of idea... |
I got a PM from a fellow named Mark who suggested (with partial humor):
SHAG Some Hang, All Glide.
FLAG Foot launch and glide.
Wind Spirits.
Upshots.
Wind Sliders.
Quantum Monkeys.
I think JH is already using Upshots and I wouldn't want to conflict with him. The others can probably go on the list. 
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: |
#128
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| Holger wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
- Name
- Purpose
- Insurance
- Organizational Structure
- Membership Benefits
- Membership Classes (and costs)
- Training and Rating Programs
- Instructors
- Competition
- Classes of Wings |
Bob, how about doing this topic by topic, since we're not in one room with full attention to the matter?
I suggest we pick 1 topic, discuss it, vote on it and move on to the
next. First topic is the name and domain name. The wiki is also not
ideal as we'll get write conflicts if we all start editing those
handful pages. I'd keep it in a forum (separate, if possible) until we
have a decision, then one of us writes it into the wiki. Or a few write
on it, but not all. |
I'll welcome the day when we start having update conflicts on the Wiki!!!
But I like your idea as well. The only problem is that I think we
should let much of this happen over a period of weeks and not hours.
I'm concerned that there may be people who haven't really followed this
topic or may not even be members of hanggliding.org right now. I'd like
to allow some time for more people to be involved on the "ground floor"
level.
Having said all that, picking a name does start to give us a
rallying point, and I wouldn't object to that being done sooner. How do
you think we should proceed? Do I hear a motion on the floor?
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject: |
#129
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| bobk wrote: |
| The
only problem is that I think we should let much of this happen over a
period of weeks and not hours. I'm concerned that there may be people
who haven't really followed this topic or may not even be members of
hanggliding.org right now. |
Certainly. It will take a good while until we have the whole thing
hammered out. If we get the name and some basics in place until 7/4
it's already a success. We'll have many weeks of discussing each topic.
Also, we don't have to have everything in place, since we'll be
dependent on USHPA for quite a while (at least until there is an
alternative insurance). For now, I view this new org more like a
political party that works within the existing system. It doesn't have
to be a complete system right away. |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:36 pm Post subject: |
#130
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| Quote: |
ACTION ITEM:
We need to settle on a name an domain name before I can build anything for the community to go crazy with.
Can someone pull together all the names so far? Lets take a vote or add a few more.
|
I tried saying this a few posts ago. Once we have a name then we have
something to start working with and things can start moving forward.
Lets set a deadline for names to be submitted for consideration no
later than Sunday June 13th and then have a vote on them which will end
Sunday June 20th. We should probably take the list of names BobK has
collected and count votes ONLY from the people that are on the list.
Setting up a Poll may not be the best idea because anyone would be able
to cast their vote. Unless of course we don't care about members voting
on a name. It may even be better having everyone voting on a list of
names we throw together that way we get the best accepted name by more
than 20 people. If we have 20 names and 20 people each voting for 1 or
two name selection based on two votes would kinda be pretty lame.
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject: |
#131
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| Let's
have both: a public poll and voting of the members by name. I'm not
sure every vote on the public poll is one with the intent to find the
best name for a new org. |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject: |
#132
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| $!>< wrote: |
| Lets
set a deadline for names to be submitted for consideration no later
than Sunday June 13th and then have a vote on them which will end
Sunday June 20th. We should probably take the list of names BobK has
collected and count votes ONLY from the people that are on the list.
Setting up a Poll may not be the best idea because anyone would be able
to cast their vote. Unless of course we don't care about members voting
on a name. It may even be better having everyone voting on a list of
names we throw together that way we get the best accepted name by more
than 20 people. If we have 20 names and 20 people each voting for 1 or
two name selection based on two votes would kinda be pretty lame. |
I second that motion. I'm happy with those dates, but I'd like to know
if there's anyone else who would like to offer suggestions or
modifications?
Also, for the record, this is the current list of names as of the time of the motion:
Wingspan34
JB
SG
joefaust
HangLoose
Eddie Paul
Holger
$!><
darkcloud
blindrodie
tipvortex
Rebardan (?)
slimchance (?)
Windlord
OSCAR
bobk
Dennis D
SkyPilot
knumbknuts
SeeMarkFly
mtpilot
HGXC
fly,surf,&ski
BBJCaptain
jspin72
ChattaroyMan
Davedebogusone
miguel
synclavier
Jason
hgflyer
gluesniffer
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: |
#133
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Actually,
on second thought, would you accept a friendly amendment to first vote
on picking the top 2 or 3 names and then vote again among just those 2
or 3 (so we don't end up with the situation where the winner gets only
2 or 3 votes).
Also, I think our name will depend on what domain names are actually available, so that will have to be researched as well.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: |
#134
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| Quote: |
| Let's
have both: a public poll and voting of the members by name. I'm not
sure every vote on the public poll is one with the intent to find the
best name for a new org. |
I see what you are saying about the public voting, but if WE are
providing the names to vote on, then it really is not that big of a
deal. It isn't like they will have the ability to fudge the name
process by putting their own BS name in that gets voted to the top.
As it is right now there are about a dozen names and about 3 dozen
"members" if everyone votes for a different name and then the remainder
of voters do likewise, we will have the victor being a name that got
maybe 4 votes and the runner up 3 votes if we limit it to a members
only vote.
Maybe we can do a public first and then take the top 3 or 4 and have the members vote on them.
Maybe this is what you were trying to say.....  But I just had to type it out.
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:49 pm Post subject: |
#135
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| bobk wrote: |
Actually,
on second thought, would you accept a friendly amendment to first vote
on picking the top 2 or 3 names and then vote again among just those 2
or 3 (so we don't end up with the situation where the winner gets only
2 or 3 votes).
Also, I think our name will depend on what domain names are actually available, so that will have to be researched as well. |
Yes! Also remember, we could pick a .aero domain if .org or .us is taken. |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:55 pm Post subject: |
#136
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Actally, I just thought of one other way to do the vote.
We could have each person list their choices in order of preference
and then pick the weighted winner. I'm sure there's a procedure for
this kind of voting that makes it somewhat "optimal".
By the way, this little dilemma of picking a name is a good test to
see how well this small group can cooperate to make progress.
If it turns into a disaster, then we're doomed. 
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:01 pm Post subject: |
#137
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| Quote: |
| We could have each person list their choices in order of preference and then pick the weighted winner. |
A straight vote using the existing polling built into this site
would be the best way to go. Having people make a list and copying the
names right could turn into a disaster. Survival of the fittest is the
best way. Click a button, vote and let the computer do the work. The
top three names move on to the next round.
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1896
Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:01 pm Post subject: |
#138
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For information only: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting
| Wikipedia wrote: |
Different
voting systems use different types of vote. Suppose that the options in
some election are Alice, Bob, Charlie, Daniel, and Emily and they are
all vying for the same position:
In a voting system that uses a single vote, the voter selects his
or her most preferred candidate. "Plurality voting systems" use single
votes.
A development on the single vote system is to have two-round
elections, or repeat first-past-the-post. However, the winner must win
by 50% plus one, called a simple majority. If subsequent votes must be
used, often a candidate, the one with the fewest votes or anyone who
wants to move their support to another candidate, is removed from the
ballot.
An alternative to the Two-round voting system is the single round Preferential voting
system (Also referred to as Alternative vote or Instant run-off) as
used in Australia, Ireland and some states in the USA. Voters rank each
candidate in order of preference (1,2,3 etc). Votes are distributed to
each candidate according to the preferences allocated. If no single
candidate has 50% or more votes then the candidate with the least votes
is excluded and their votes redistributed according to the voters
nominated order of preference. The process repeating itself until a
candidate has 50% or more votes. The system is designed to produce the
same result as an exhaustive ballot but using only a single round of
voting.
In a voting system that uses a multiple vote, the voter can vote
for any subset of the alternatives. So, a voter might vote for Alice,
Bob, and Charlie, rejecting Daniel and Emily. Approval voting uses such
multiple votes.
In a voting system that uses a ranked vote, the voter has to rank
the alternatives in order of preference. For example, they might vote
for Bob in first place, then Emily, then Alice, then Daniel, and
finally Charlie. Preferential voting systems, such as those famously
used in Australia, use a ranked vote.
In a voting system that uses a scored vote (or range vote), the
voter gives each alternative a number between one and ten (the upper
and lower bounds may vary). See range voting.
Some "multiple-winner" systems may have a single vote or one vote
per elector per available position. In such a case the elector could
vote for Bob and Charlie on a ballot with two votes. These types of
systems can use ranked or unranked voting, and are often used for
at-large positions such as on some city councils. |
This level of thought may not be needed to choose a name, but if we're
going to build a better mousetrap in the long run, we should come up
with a good system for voting that gives us what we want - especially
useful in this kind of on-line process. I would also advocate for a
system where our votes are public since we're effectively the "Board
Members" at this point. The other advantage of public voting is that
there's less chance for "monkey business" in counting or anything else.
We should all be willing to stand behind how we vote. At least that's
what I believe.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders
• Join the Torrey Hawks
• Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Last edited by bobk
on Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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$!><
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject: |
#139
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| Quote: |
| This
level of thought may not be needed to choose a name, but if we're going
to build a better mousetrap in the long run, we should come up with a
good system for voting that gives us what we want - especially useful
in this kind of on-line process. |
Agreed. I think the name can be picked with what we have. Once we have
a name, we can then make a site, and then build a more elaborate and
logical way of doing things. Gotta lay the first brick somewhere and
that starts with the name.
_________________
$!><
____________
Live while you are alive.
Kilo-Bravo-One-Uniform-Charlie-Victor
Hang Hang
WW-Sport 2 175
Z5
http://www.vimeo.com/swineflew
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gluesniffer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 319
Location: 5150
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:15 pm Post subject: |
#140
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so true bob
I am cool with most names as long as it represents a hang glide organization.
I think we all should remain flexible on names and be open to changing names and logos in the future if something better arises.
Also if anyone has thought of a name that they know kicks azs, maybe
they should go ahead and pay for the name just in case some one reads
our OPEN discussions and buys the preferred name out from under us 
or am i just paranoid
_________________
"Truth is the highest God" - Gandhi
Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it |
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